[mochachoc]

I'm just learnning about chords and their relation to scales. How come u can have minor chords arising out of a major scale?

[AX7221]

Its just the way that they line up

the minor scale pattern is FHFFHFF
a minor chord is the first, third and fifth note of the minor scale, so its the root of the chord plus 1.5 steps, then 2 more steps.

Now for the major scale:
FFHFFFH
if i want to play an chord with the root on the second note, the following note will go FHFFFH
i'll rewrite the first four steps:
FH,FF
which is 1.5 steps and 2 steps, which means if i play a minor chord on the 2 of the major scale the notes of the minor chord will all be in the major scale.

i have a feeling i've done a horrible job explaining this, hopefully somone can explain it better.

I got an idea:
Min Chord: ( | = a fret)
d --|-0|--|--|--|--
a --|--|-0|--|--|--
e --|--|--|--|-R|--

Maj Scale:
d-0|--|-0|--|-0|-R|--|-0|--|
a-0|--|-0|-0|--|-0|--|-0|--|
e-0|--|-0|-R|--|-0|--|-0|--|

Maj Chord:
d --|-0|--|--|--|--
a --|--|--|-0|--|--
e --|--|--|--|-R|--

If you look at the major scale you can see there are major chords and minor chords, depending on where the root of the chord is

[Fretsource]

It's because the distances between the notes of a major scare aren't equal.
If you look at a C major scale, the notes are CDEFGABC
Chords are made by selecting alternate scale notes, i.e., select a note and skip the next, e.g (chord notes are in bold)

The first chord starts on C
CDEFGABC
The next chord starts on D
CDEFGABC

The distance from C to E in the first chord is two tones (two whole steps)
The distance from D to F in the second chord is only one and a half tones (one and a half steps)
So the first chord with the bigger gap is called C MAJOR and the second chord, which has a smaller gap, is called D MINOR.
That's why the chords are called 'major' or 'minor' (i.e big or small)- it's referring to the size of the gap between the chord notes.

[mochachoc]

hhmm guys i'm more confused than ever. this might be too simplistic and i'm probably wrong but is it cos the minor chords contain either flats and sharps or both (i.e black notes on the piano) and the major do not?

[Fretsource]

No - That's not it, Mocha. Most major scales also contain flats or sharps. In fact C major is the only one that doesn't have any.

But the difference between a major CHORD and a minor one is just one note. The minor chord has one note that is flat compared to a major, e.g.
C major = C E & G
C minor = C Eb & G

D major = D F# & A
D minor = D F & A

Look again at the C major scale > CDEFGABC
We can make the chord C major (C,E & G), from that scale because it contains those 3 notes, but we CAN'T make C minor (C, Eb & G) because we don't have any Eb in the scale.

We can also make D minor (D F & A) because all those notes are present in the scale, but we CAN'T make D major (D F# & A) because we don't have F# in that scale.

If you're not sure yet - keep asking questions.

[mochachoc]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

No - That's not it, Mocha. Most major scales also contain flats or sharps. In fact C major is the only one that doesn't have any.

But the difference between a major CHORD and a minor one is just one note. The minor chord has one note that is flat compared to a major, e.g.
C major = C E & G
C minor = C Eb & G

D major = D F# & A
D minor = D F & A

Look again at the C major scale > CDEFGABC
We can make the chord C major (C,E & G), from that scale because it contains those 3 notes, but we CAN'T make C minor (C, Eb & G) because we don't have any Eb in the scale.

We can also make D minor (D F & A) because all those notes are present in the scale, but we CAN'T make D major (D F# & A) because we don't have F# in that scale.

If you're not sure yet - keep asking questions.

thanx fretsource i think what i'm hearing is u have to stick to the notes within the scale to make the chords right?

So if u make a triad and the pattern of interval follows a major pattern i.e tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone then of course we call it major. However if the pattern of interval follows minor scale then it is a minor. e.g in the cmaj scale there is Dm and it is so called cos the triad interval follows a minor pattern.

Phew does this make any sense have i got it please tell me i've got i got a headache

[Fretsource]

No wonder you've got a headache, banging your head like that. lol

Ok - You're getting closer. You're getting confused by those words MAJOR and MINOR. When a chord is called MAJOR it doesn't mean it comes from a MAJOR SCALE, it just means the gap between its first two notes is BIGGER (two tones) than the minor chord which has a smaller gap (one and a half tones). It doesn't matter what type of scale we take the notes from. (But in practice when we make chords we always refer to the major scale only).

But you're almost right about "u have to stick to the notes within the scale to make the chords"
You have to stick to the scale notes to find the chords that occur naturally from those scales - but you can always modify them to make 'out of scale' chords as I showed with the D minor/ D major. The D minor chord occurs naturally in the C scale because its 3 notes (D, F & A) are all present in the C scale - But D major (D, F# & A) doesn't occur naturally in that scale because of the F# which isn't in the scale.

[mochachoc]

ok getting closer. i get chords naturally occuring in a scale. what i was stuck on is why the Dm is called that anyway. so i'm guessing its the answer you gave which is the interval/distance between the D and the next note in that Dm chord is one and a half tones thus it is a minor chord . Whereas the distance between the C and the next note in the C chord (E) is 2 tones thus we call this a major chord. I'm assuming this holds true for all the natural major and minor chords within a scale.

re: "when we make chords we always refer to the major scale only" does this mean we dont have chords arising out of minor scales?

[Fretsource]

That's it exactly - Mocha. Dm is called 'minor' because there's only one and a half tones between its first two notes compared to the interval between the C and E notes of C major which is two tones. You've got it!

Next:
"when we talk about the notes that chords contain we always refer to the major scale only" does this mean we dont have chords arising out of minor scales?"

We can make chords out of minor scales too - they've got their major and minor chords too for the same reasons that I mentioned. (bigger and smaller intervals).

I just meant that when we talk about different types of chords, it makes sense to refer everything to just one type of scale - so every chord has a formula that means we can find the notes by referring to just the major scale.

Examples Chord + major scale notes
Major chord = 1, 3 5
Minor chord = 1 b3 5
diminished = 1 b3 b5
augmented = 1 3 #5
Dominant 7th = 1 3 5 b7
Minor 7th = 1 b3 5 b7
Sus 4 = 1 4 5
6th = 1 3 5 6
Min 6th = 1 b3 5 6

You see? - It's far simpler if we construct every chord by referring to just one type of scale and making modifications (# & b) where necessary. We could choose to do it with any scale but the formula for each chord would be different - so we just use the major. And that is the standard way that's used by all theory books.

So if you want to quickly make a chord such as G minor, there's no need to think of notes 1, 3 & 5 of the G minor scale, just find notes 1 b3 & 5 of the G MAJOR scale = G Bb & D

[Tekker]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

So if you want to quickly make a chord such as G minor, there's no need to think of notes 1, 3 & 5 of the G minor scale, just find notes 1 b3 & 5 of the G MAJOR scale = G Bb & D

To avoid possible confusion, there actually is no "Bb" in the G major scale... You have to flat the B to make it Bb. So I think what he's trying to say is just find the 1 3 and 5 in a major scale, and then flat the 3rd to make it minor (or Bb).


The way I usually think of chords is the intervals created from the root note of the chord. For simplicity sake, I'll use C as the root note.

The distance from C to D is a Major 2nd and it is equal to the distance of 2 half steps.
The distance from C to E is a Major 3rd and it is equal to the distance of 4 half steps.
The distance from C to F is a Perfect 4th and it is equal to the distance of 5 half steps.
The distance from C to G is a Perfect 5th and it is equal to the distance of 7 half steps.
The distance from C to A is a Major 6th and it is equal to the distance of 9 half steps.
The distance form C to B is a Major 7th and it is equal to the distance of 11 half steps.
The distance from C to the next C (one octave up) is called a Perfect Octave and it is equal to the distance of 12 half steps.

Notice that we just did each interval in the C major scale as they relate to C, and all of these intervals was either a "major" interval or a "perfect" interval (which for practical purposes means exactly the same thing as major). So the major scale has all major (or perfect) intervals, that's a convenient way to remember the major intervals.


Now, anytime you flat a Major interval (move it down one half step) it becomes a Minor interval. For example, C to Db, is a Minor 2nd. This is the same with the 3rd, 6th, and 7th, intervals.

When you flat a Perfect interval it becomes a Diminished interval. For example, C to Gb is a Diminished 5th. However, you can’t really flat the Perfect 4th or the Perfect Octave, because the 4th would become a 3rd (since there’s no in-between note) and the octave would become a 7th (there is also no note in-between). So the Perfect 5th is probably the only one you will see this applied to. But ya never know sometimes! lol

When you sharp a Perfect interval (move it up one half step) it becomes an Augmented interval. The 4th and the 5th are usually the only ones this will apply to, since you probably won’t ever see an augmented octave. It would more likely be seen as a minor 2nd.


Now take this info and look at the list of chords Fretsource posted and you should see some connections.

The difference between the major and minor chord is the 3rd scale degree. The major chord has a major 3rd and the minor chord has a minor 3rd. The 1st and 5th scale degrees don't change, therefore the 3rd scale degree determines if the chord is major or minor.

Notice that for the "diminished" the 5th is also are flatted in addition to the 3rd, flatting the perfect 5th interval gives this chord the name of diminished.

Same thing for the augmented, the perfect 5th is sharped and that gives it the name augmented.

Adding a major 7th interval to a major triad gives a major 7 chord... Likewise adding a minor 7th interval to a minor triad gives a minor 7 chord. The trick now comes when adding a minor 7th interval to a major triad, this has a special name called dominant 7 (which comes from more theoretical mumbo jumbo ).


So as you can (hopefully) see, the names of a lot of these chords have very logical names when you relate them to the intervals that are contained within the chord. So this is the way I generally prefer to think of chords.... When I actually stop to think about them that is.

-tkr

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by Tekker

To avoid possible confusion, there actually is no "Bb" in the G major scale... You have to flat the B to make it Bb. So I think what he's trying to say is just find the 1 3 and 5 in a major scale, and then flat the 3rd to make it minor (or Bb).

Sorry if that part wasn't clear enough. Yes, that's what I meant. When I said take 1, b3 & 5 of the G major scale to make G minor, I mean take 1, 3 & 5 (GBD) and flat the 3 to make G minor (G,Bb,D).
It's the same with the chords I listed earlier too. To make a chord such as C diminished, as the formula is 1 b3 b5 - I mean, take 1, 3 & 5 of the C MAJOR scale (CEG) and flat the 3 & 5 to give C diminished (C,Eb,Gb).

The point I'm trying to push to Mochachoc is that it's worthwhile memorising the formula for chords in relation to the major scale, rather than any other scale, because chords, in general, are named in relation to the major scale. So when we talk about a chord such as a minor 6th. we know that the sixth part is referring to the sixth of the MAJOR scale, not the minor scale. Knowing that chord names refer to the major scale means that (apart from a few historical anomalies) we can work out vitually every chord from just its name.