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Forum Home > Guitar For Beginners & Beyond General Forum > The Workings Of Music > Chord substitution


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  #1  
Old June 29th, 2006
si16 si16 is offline
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Chord substitution

I've recently started tinkering with songs with a view to trying to come up with my own, pretty basic, arrangements. To try and make them a bit more interesting I would like to know a bit more about chord substitutions, e.g. the theory behind them, what works and what should be avoided.

I've looked at a few websites but a lot of them are quite advanced. Any thoughts?

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  #2  
Old June 29th, 2006
bmurnahan bmurnahan is offline
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I don't know where you currently stand with your knowledge so I will throw out a few ideas. See what makes sense and then maybe ask more questions. Chord substitution can be very involved and even keeping it simple can still require long answers.

I have broken down chord subs to the following.

1. Adding color to the existing chord by adding 9th's, 13th's, etc.

2. Common tone subs...for instance Cmaj7 and Emin7 share three notes (E, G and B).
This relates back to knowing the harmonized major scale.

3. Backcycling around the circle of fifths. This makes use of the 5 to 1 relationship between chords and the strength of that resolution in all styles of music.

4. Tritone subs. This is substituting one 7th chord for another that have roots a tritone apart.

5. You can throw all of this out the window and let your ear and the melody of the song dictate where to go. Also, the melody is always the first and most important thing to consider, regardless of which these ideas you use.

With just these 5 ideas you can be substituting chords from now until the cows come home. These are really not hard to understand. Which of these do you know?

Please give us a little more info on your existing knowledge and see where we go from there.

Best Woishes,

Bob

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  #3  
Old June 30th, 2006
si16 si16 is offline
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I'd say I'm OK with 1 and 3 so if you could go into more detail on 2 and 4 I'd appreciate it.

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  #4  
Old June 30th, 2006
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I am also still waiting for an answer on this type of thing... I have never been able to go beyond number 1...

I eventually thought it had to do with just inversions of the chords, but maybe I was wrong...

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Old June 30th, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by si16
I'd say I'm OK with 1 and 3 so if you could go into more detail on 2 and 4 I'd appreciate it.
#2: “Common tone” substitution means that chords that share common notes can be substituted for each other. For example:

C major: C E G

E minor: E G B
A minor: A C E

The bolded notes are notes that the chords have in common with C.

Because Em and Am both share two notes with C, either one of them can be played in place of C (The reverse is also true and C can be played in place of either Em or Am.) This method works with a variety of chords, for example bmurnahan used 7th chords.

Cmaj7: C E G B
Emin7: E G B D

These share three notes and can be played in place of each other.

This one is probably the simplest one after #1.


#4: (Tritone subs) I’m new here so I don’t know how depth your theory knowledge is, so I’ll start from the beginning, plus I’m sure others would be interested in this as well. (And as those from Marc Seal’s forum can verify, I like to type a lot. )

The name “Tritone” means three tones (or three whole steps) which is a diminished 5thth (or augmented 4th) interval. This diminished 5thth interval shows up in dominant 7 chords and in diminished chords. However, for tritone substitution only dominant 7 chords are used.

The basic idea is to take the dominant 7 chord (for example G7 in the key of C major) and replace it with another dominant 7 chord that has the same diminished 5th interval (tritone) but “flipped”. For example:

G7: G B D F

B - F is the tritone in G7, so the chord we are looking for will have F – B as the tritone. That chord just happens to be a tritone (3 whole steps) away from the G7 chord, which is Db7.

Db7: Db F A Cb(B)

In this case you are barrowing a chord from outside of the key of C major, but since the Db7 has the same tritone interval, it has a similar function to the G7... That is, it will pull towards C (the tonic).


....Well, I was going to post a detailed "theoretical rambling" section about the tritone substitution (it's more of a background that explains tritones and other things that play a part in the tritone subs), but it is getting to be quite long and I need sleep, so I gotta call it quits for now.... But if anyone is interested I could finish it up tomorrow and post it.

-tkr


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Tekker's Lessons on GfB&B: Music Theory, Recording, and General Guitar

Last edited by Tekker : June 30th, 2006 at 07:49 AM.
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Old June 30th, 2006
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Very interresting indeed...

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Old June 30th, 2006
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I'm interested, Tekker! Very interested...! and btw. thanks for the post above...

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Old June 30th, 2006
bmurnahan bmurnahan is offline
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Picking up where Tekker left off (good info by the way).

The C major scale harmonized looks like this.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
C D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D E
G A B C D E F G
B C D E F G A B

The chord qualities are

1 and 4 are major 7ths

2, 3 and 6 are minor 7ths

5 is a dominant 7th

and 7 is a min7b5 chord

3 and 6 will substitue for 1 because they each share 3 notes, hence the term common tone substitution.

2 and 4 sub for each other and 5 and 7 sub for each other.



Now let's take the last 2 bars of a song in C which is a great place for a turnaround.
A turnaround is a chord progression that leads back to the beginning of a song, typically it is a 1 6 2 5 progression. In C that would be

Cmaj7 Amin7 Dmin7 G7

We could add notes for additional color


Cmaj9 Amin9 Dmin11 G13



We could add a common tone sub like 3 for 1. That gives us

Emin7 Amin7 Dmin7 G7 and you could still add extensions to this if you want.

Because the 5 to 1 resolution is so strong you can change some of the chords to dominant 7ths like this.

Emin7 A7 D7 G7 and if you add tritone subs you can get other possibilities like these.


Emin Eb7 D7 Db7. Tritone subs are a great way to get to a chromatic bass line. Notice the movement E Eb D Db.


Any combination will work between the regular chords and the tritone subs. Here are a couple of more.
Cmaj7 A7 Ab7 G7


Cmaj7 Eb7 Ab7 G7


Emin7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7


It would be easy to keep going here but I am going to stop here and see if anymore questions come up.


Best Wishes,

Bob

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  #9  
Old June 30th, 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by namiguShin
I'm interested, Tekker! Very interested...! and btw. thanks for the post above...
Alright, this part is basically just theoretical rambling behind the scenes of the tritone substitution (“how” and “why” it works the way it does). Since tritone substitution is a little more difficult to see “why” it works compared to the others.

-----------------------------------------------

The tritone interval has a very (VERY) strong pull towards the tonic. The tritone plays a huge part in why the V7-I progression sounds sooooo good and why if you play a diminished chord, your ear wants to hear it resolved to the tonic. So the presence of the tritone in Db7 gives this chord a similar ability to resolve to C.

The tritone can be resolved in two different ways. For example, play this on your guitar (on the G and D strings):

G--4--5--
D--3--2--

Now get that resolution out of your head () and play this:

G--4--3--
D--3--4--

Those are the two ways to resolve a tritone. So how do you know which one is the best to use? The trick is that intervals want to resolve in the same direction that they were altered. In other words, remember how the tritone can be called diminished 5th or augmented 4th? This is actually very important because while they are the same interval, they actually have different ways that they resolve depending on which way they were altered.

The diminished 5th was moved “inward” from a perfect 5th interval, so the notes would want to continue to move inward towards each other to resolve. This is done by moving “both” notes towards each other by one half step, which makes the diminished 5th interval resolve to a major 3rd interval. For example, B - F would result in C - E (this is the first guitar playing example)

The augmented 4th however was moved “outward” from a perfect 4th, so the notes would want to move outward away from each other to resolve. Again, move ”both” notes away from each other by one half step. For example, B – F would result in Bb – F# (the second guitar example)

Now the question is how do you know what to call it (a diminished 5th or an augmented 4th) so that you will know which way to move it? This part is a little hard to explain using only words, so let’s try some examples...

Going back to the G7 chord, in the key of C major:

G7: G B D F

In this case “B” comes before “F” when writing out the chord, so the order of the notes as they appear in the chord is important. Now we need to figure out what kind of an interval this is (is it a 5th or a 4th?) Let’s start on B and use the B major scale to count up to F.

B C# D# E F#
1 2. 3. 4 5

As we can see F# is the 5th scale degree in the key of B major. Therefore B - F has to be is a diminished 5th interval.

Ok, there’s one down. Let’s do the same thing for the Db7 chord used as the tritone sub.

NOTE 1: Db7 is the dominant chord in Gb major, however since we are playing this chord in the key of C major, “Cb” (as it would be called in the key of Gb major) will be called “B” because Cb is not correct notation for the key of C major. So using the correct notation for the notes is also important.

Db7: Db F A B

Here “F” comes before “B”, and now we can figure out this interval starting on F and using the F major scale.

F G A Bb
1 2 3 4

In this case Bb is the 4th scale degree in the key of F major. Therefore, F - B has to be an augmented 4th interval.

NOTE 2: As mentioned above, if we were in the key of Gb major, B would be called “Cb”. Since that is some kind of C note, we would find out what kind of interval it is from F to C using the F major scale. In this case, C is the 5th scale degree and therefore that would make Cb a diminished 5th interval.


So after all of that we still haven’t really gotten anywhere with our tritone subs, but we’ve set the ground work.... Now to the fun part.

The Db7 on it’s own doesn’t really want to resolve to C. It is a dominant 7 chord with a diminished 5th interval so it wants to resolve to “its” tonic chord which is Gb. While you are satisfying the tritone in one sense by going to C, that tritone would be even more happy going to Gb. Because the rest of the chord tells the tritone that it is a diminished 5th interval and should resolve inward.

However by going to C instead of Gb, you are basically forcing it to resolve outwards instead of inwards. This of course is fine as a tritone by itself can resolve both ways, but what that tritone really wants to do within that dominant 7 chord is follow the function of the dominant 7 chord and resolve to its own tonic. Dominant 7 chords are used in modulation (changing keys) to instantly change where the tonic is even among other chords in a totally different key. So this one chord has a very powerful pull towards its tonic.

The other side of this coin is that you are playing chords associated with the key of C and your ear has already developed a sense for that tonic. So even when you throw in the tritone sub your ears still hear that tritone wanting to pull towards C instead of the new tonic Gb.


So now that you know some background for the tritone subs, you can really play around with it. For example, use the dominant 7 chord as a deceptive key change.

....What’s that? How can a dominant 7 chord be a “deceptive” key change?

Try this:

C F G Db7 C – Sounds really good and you pretty much expect it to go back to C.

Now try this:

C F G Db7 F# - Wow, never saw that one coming.

...Ok, well maybe you did see that one coming. In fact you can hear it both ways before you even play the last chord depending on which way you let your mind go. You can play around with using both methods in the same song. For example, stay in key the first time (or first few times) then throw that key change in on the same chord progression intsead of going back to original tonic.

It’s not very often that the dominant 7 chord doesn’t want to resolve to its own tonic chord, and it’s cool to play around with it.

Ok, that's it for now. Hope that helps.

-tkr


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Tekker's Lessons on GfB&B: Music Theory, Recording, and General Guitar
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  #10  
Old June 30th, 2006
si16 si16 is offline
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Thanks Bob and Tekker, this is just what I was looking for. I'll play about with this for a while and see how I get on.

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Old June 30th, 2006
Fretsource Fretsource is offline

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Excellent info from Bob and Tekker. Respect

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Old July 1st, 2006
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namiguShin namiguShin is offline
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Thanks, guys... For all the time and effort you've put in these posts... Now I'll spend some time in studying this a bit...

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Old July 3rd, 2006
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Thanks guys, it is brilliant information... I now understand a lot of things I did not previously. Now it is just a matter of applying it...

I have tried it a couple of times over the weekend, a Bm7 subs well for a D... etc. Common tones you see...

Cheers.

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Old July 4th, 2006
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  Tri-Tones and the Blues Piano for Guitar Solo's

Hi Folks,

Just a reminder for guitar players who've not played with a piano player...yet. - In my experience good intentioned piano players over play when supporting another soloist. - If there's bass and drums supporting then all the soloist should hear from the piano player when playing a standard blues is the tri-tones which will sit nicely above the bass players root movement. - I'll attempt to give an example via mp3 in the not too distant future. - I'm sure the more elderly guitarists out there can appreciate where I'm coming from. - In other words - " Why all the clutter ? "

Thanks to all the folks that contributed to this topic...a beautiful thing.

Adios

Burps

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  #15  
Old July 4th, 2006
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Yes, I'm with Burps: Thanks for the great explanantions Bob, Tekker.


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Forum Home > Guitar For Beginners & Beyond General Forum > The Workings Of Music > Chord substitution


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