[cybersmyth]

I've been trying to figure this out for awhile and haven't found a source that really explains it.

I understand 4/4 and 3/4 time, those make sense and are different. But what about songs with times likes 6/8 and 2/4.

Isn't 6/8's really just 3/4? And isn't 2/4 really just 4/4?

Any help would be appreciated,
-Joe

[Kirk Lorange]

Hey Joe.

You're right, it is confusing, and I'm no expert on the finer points either. As you say, 4/4 and 3/4 are easy to understand. I've always thought that if you multiply both sides by 2, you're basically looking at the same thing. so 4/4 = 8/8, 3/4 = 6/8.

2/4 is different though. You count it One two One two One two, and it makes quite a difference to how you play a piece of music. A lot of Bluegrass is 2/4, and if you wanted to take a well known tune and turn it into a Bluegrass tune, you'd tell the rhythm section (especially the bass player) to think two/four.

I've done countless sessions over the years, and one of the most common questions to the writer/producer, as we all look at our chord charts, is "How are you counting this?", so I think the confusion is universal.

Maybe an expert can throw some light on this for us.

[Shabbadoo]

I'm not an expert, and it's been years since I took music theory lessons, but I believe the difference between a time signature like 3/4 time and 6/8 time is mainly what beat is accented. Therefore, with 3/4 time, it would be counted ONE, two, three, ONE, two three... whereas 6/8 time I think is only really be heavily accented on one of ever six beats. However, I'm pretty sure it's basically the same as 3/4, in that two notes are accented (therefore, ONE and FOUR) just FOUR would be more accented: therefore ONE, two, three FOUR, five six.

Hopefully this makes sense and is accurate...

[ycaron]

Many teach (incorrectly) that the top number in a key signature tells how many beats per measure. There must be thousands of music theory books that says this. But this is wrong!

Some insist that the top number tells the number of beats per measure even in face of the evidence that music is often not performed or conducted according to this rule. They say, "if the time signature is 6/8, then six beats per measure are indicated." They go on to say: "if the music is performed quickly, it may be perceived as having fewer beats."

Hogwash, I say. A time signature was never meant to indicate the number of beats per measure or the note that is to get one beat.


You might want to check this site:
http://www.lovemusiclovedance.com/rh...er_measure.htm

Y

[Neilsonite]

I checked out that site... While I agree that there is lots of confusion about time signatures, and that it's sometimes up to the performer to decide how to accent things, I remain to be convinced that all the conductors and music educators in the world don't understand time signatures, and that the author is the only one that does...

OK, time signatures with an 8 on the bottom have bars that are divided into 8th notes. BUT, those 8th notes are grouped in chunks of three:
6/8 has two chunks of three "1 & a 2 & a"
9/8 has three thunks of three "1 & a 2 & a 3 & a"
12/8 has four chunks of three '1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a"

By contrast, if counting in 8th notes in 3/4, it goes "1 & 2 & 3 &".

These are not hard and fast rules, and other accents can be used (just listen to fusion!).

2/4 is usually different from 4/4 because the 1 and 3 in 4/4 are generally not accented equally, so it feels like a 4-beat loop. In 2/4 (like lots of 16th-note classical stuff) the 1 of each bar is accented equally, so it feels like a 2-beat loop.

Hope that helps,
James

[silverbullet5774]

Could we hear some examples of this stuff, a couple midi's or something in different time sigs? that REALLY overaccent stuff so that we can see the difference. I am pretty much a music theory newbie, I know a handfull of scales and the chords that work well with them, and have been trying to grasp the circle of fifths (not to deviate from the topic). So anything about time sigs would be really helpfull for me I think.

[Neilsonite]

Hi, here's 3/4 versus 6/8:
4 bars of 3/4 (count 1 & 2 & 3 &)
4 bars of 6/8 (count 1 & a 2 & a)
then repeated.

The tempo stays exactly the same (try tapping out the rhythm of the hi-hats), but the accents change.

Hope that clears things up,
James

[justinthyme]

Great suggestion, silverbullet and many thanks to Neilsonite for providing a sound file that has finally cleared that problem up for me, too. The two time sigs are quite distinct - much easier to hear than to understand from a written description.

When I listen to songs in 3/4 time, I often get the impression that the syncopation is more like 1.....2..3, 1.....2..3 rather than 1..2..3 (perfectly evenly spaced). Would I be right in thinking that time sigs are therefore a guide, rather than a map to be slavishly followed, beat- or pulse-wise? That is, except when it comes to the start of a new bar?

Cheers

JT

[Neilsonite]

Hi JT, glad that was useful. I'm not sure I can picture exactly the beat you mean, but if you have any example songs I'll check it out...

As far as strict time signatures go, I'd say that the accents could be anywhere (and can be missing on the 1), but that if you change the number of beats in a bar, you've changed the time signature, which is perfectly OK as well! The underlying beat does not need to be accented or even played to be felt (think about the end of the chorus of I Feel Good by James Brown).

James

[justinthyme]

Think of an oom-pah-pah, oom-pah-pah tune (like 'oom-pah-pah, that's how it goes', etc). The two 'pahs' are closer together than the 'oom' and the first 'pah'. At least, that's how it seems to me.

Anyway, the more I analzye what I was trying to say, the more I think that perhaps I'm talking about syncopation, or perhaps playing ahead of or behind the beat. Or both - or maybe they are the same thing!? LOL

Cheers

JT