[solus]

I have long known the modes, just not when to use them. I can dig mixolydian, lydian if I try hard, and I think I might have heard one song that used dorian. What I'm looking for is songs or snippets that illustrates how these and other modes (phrygian and *shudder* locrian) can be used in a song. If you have some tabs or chord progressions, or even examples of songs, I'll be very grateful.

[allthumbs]

Sorry man. I don't use modes or pure scales.

[Kirk Lorange]

Hi solus.

I was like you ... I knew what the modes were but had no idea how to use them. It always sounded awful when I consciously tried to apply this knowledge to real playing. So I decided to drop that approach to soloing (which is what I presume you're asking about) and started looking at music in a different way. I take it one chord at a time now, keeping track of chord tones as the progression progesses, and build my melody primarily around them. I never looked back. Thinking along those lines builds strong relevant melody ... all the while using modes and scales without needing to identify them or think of them in any way.

An example of this mindset would be: I'm playing over a 7th chord; The chord tones are 1-3-5-b7; these are my main melody notes, the notes that fall on the strong beats; I build melody lines that might use a couple of other scale notes as passing tones between the chord tones ... end result? I've been using the Mixolydian mode. The big difference is that I wasn't thinking 7 notes in a line, I was thinking 4 notes in an array and allowing them to be connected from time to time. Melody, to me anyway, is much more accessible when I see the fretboard that way, rather than scale patterns.

I guess what I'm saying is: Sorry, can't help you! I've been there, tried that, failed

[InvincibleKid]

I just did a homework assignment today for my music theory class on modes. I had to compose two, eight measure phrase periods--one in a minor mode (dorian,phrygian,locrian) and one in a major mode (lydian, mixo).

Using the harmony patterns of Baroque theory of moving either up a 2nd, down a 3rd, or down a 5th in any order, an entirely acceptable progression can be composed in either ionian or aeolian. Meaning if I was playing in a minor, for example, I could move from the VI chord to either a VII (F -- up a 2nd), a ii dim (b -- down a 3rd), or a V chord (E -- down a 5th).

In modal progressions this pattern is traditionially reversed. You move down a 2nd, up a 3rd, or up a 5th. I don't know why, but it works. Meaning in F Lydian you would move from a iii chord (a) to a II (G), a V (C), or a vii (e).

That's just a little advice on how to write progressions in modes. I'm not sure how widely practiced that is in pop or rock music, but that's what my textbook said. As for why you would use them, each mode (including ionian and aeolian) have a ranking on a scale of darkness --> brightness. Locrian is the darkest sounding mode and Mixolydian is the brightest. I can't remember how the others place off the top of my head but I'm guessing you would use modes for their tonal color, and the emotion they help convey.

[solus]

Thanks, I'll play around with that setup, see if I get any wiser. Does that textbook of yours have a title/author? It sounds like interesting reading.

[InvincibleKid]

Originally Posted by solus

Thanks, I'll play around with that setup, see if I get any wiser. Does that textbook of yours have a title/author? It sounds like interesting reading.

it's called Harmony: Baroque to Contemporary, by R. Evan Copley. There's two parts. Part Two had all the mode stuff. Part One is a great place to start though if you don't know anything about theory. There's a lot of examples from baroque music that take up a lot of pages and are hard to understand because they might be using higher theory as well as the level being studied. If you want some good reading accompaniment, just go to my teacher's site. he has a lot of charts and simplified rule sheets for theory.

http://www.conarco.org/theorybook/index.htm

these, along with the book taught me everything i know.

[Nem]

everytime you think to yourself and try to work out "ooh what chords can I use in this key?" you're using modes

[scotty_b]

HI
I think in terms of sound and outlining a particular harmony when I am 'thinking' modally. Knowing which mode outlines a given harmony or harmonic movement allows you to hit the chord tones as Kirk describes, but also allows you to highlight chord extensions and alerations. For example, playing over a 7b5 chord would have me using the Lydian Dominant mode to play around the given harmony. Modal application allows you to select the appropriate chordal tensions - ie does the chord have a major 6th or flat 6th in its extended harmony, or a major or minor 9th?
Some examples you might like to look at are
The song on Santana's 'Abraxis' album where the harmony is Cmaj7 to Fmaj7. That is the Ionian mode in use there. Sorry cannot remember the name. The first track on Steve Vai's 'Passion and Warfare' is also an Ionian tune.
'So What' by Miles Davis - classic Dorian modal tune.
'Flying in a Blue Dream' Satch - Lydian
'Bubble Shuffle' Larry Carlton - Mixolydian
'The Loner' Gary Moore - Aeolian
The only time I consider using the Locrian is playing a Minor 2-5-1 progression, where I would use the Locrian over the 2 chord in that progression, being a minor 7b5 chord.

[solus]

thanks for all the help, I've become friends with the dorian mode, and worked a little with phrygian (though I tend to slip into spanish phrygian when I'm at it). Locrian I save for a very rainy day.

[scotty_b]

By Spanish Phrygian do you mean the Phrygian Dominant? This is a Phrygian mode with a Major 3rd.

[WernHalen]

Man I cant believe I was trying to learn all these things a while back... My head hurts just from listening to you guys... I bought Plane talk and i am very very VERY happy about it...

It give you a easy and straight forward way of playing in the modes without thinking modes and it is soooo easy! It doesnt sound like a bunch of scale runs but rather melodious... I just love it...

[solus]

yea, that sounds about right

[scotty_b]

Originally Posted by WernHalen

Man I cant believe I was trying to learn all these things a while back... My head hurts just from listening to you guys... I bought Plane talk and i am very very VERY happy about it...

It give you a easy and straight forward way of playing in the modes without thinking modes and it is soooo easy! It doesnt sound like a bunch of scale runs but rather melodious... I just love it...

Any good player will target chord tones in their playing, I am curious to know how you would approach playing over a progression such as Cmaj7#11 to Abmaj7#11? How would you determine what 'colour' or 'passing' tones you may add if you wished tio stay true to the key? How do you determine if the 6th degree should be natural or flattened?
My own approach to playing is to use chord tones as target notes, and then play around those for the effect that I am after. If you are interested have a listen to the blues in C solo I posted the other night. Sometimes in that context I will play a blues scale, other times the arpeggio, the mixolydian mode, diminished scale, super locrian mode or just plain old chromatic scale between chord tones. I am always trying to consider where I am going to next, even if I am playing a lot of notes. I find my approach changes according to tone as well. Playing with my archtop means I am more likely to play more like Kenny Burrell - well in my dreams anyway - and if I have my electric with some overdrive I am more liekly to look at sustain and bends.
Context is everything in approaching solos - playing diminished arpeggios over a blues/rock sort of groove may not be appreciated by those in a pub!

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by scotty_b

Any good player will target chord tones in their playing, I am curious to know how you would approach playing over a progression such as Cmaj7#11 to Abmaj7#11? How would you determine what 'colour' or 'passing' tones you may add if you wished tio stay true to the key? How do you determine if the 6th degree should be natural or flattened?

I'd really have to hear the piece of music that had those chords written into it to say, but for me me it's always the evolving melody that is calling the shots, and it would be firmly attached to the 'chord of the moment' ... each of those chords simply becomes 1-3-5-7-#4. I can any or all of them, and if I want to use any other notes, they become painfully obvious when you see them occupying the spaces between the chord tones, but if I were in doubt I would probably 'dip my toe' and test the waters with a chromatic run linking those chord tones. But, as I say, once you instigate a melody, it needs to be nourished and led along by the player. I think the difference is (judging by your question about the 6th degree) that thinking scales makes you think of 7 notes in a row, and that you need to know all of them to be able to create melody; thinking chord tones is the opposite: you literally see an array, a matrix of notes, that are already the good notes, the chord itself has selected them as being the strongest notes of the moment. So you use them to outline the melody, from time to time dipping into the spaces between them, as linking notes, approach notes, decoration. Again, they become painfully obvious, to the ear, to the eye (looking down at the fretboard), to the melody as a whole.

I had a listen to your blues in C. Very nicely done, great sound and fluid lines, and I can hear that you are thinking of scales/modes. From time to time I hear that you've switched to thinking melody and stopped worrying about the 'notes in a line' approach. Those are my favorite parts of your take. I'm afraid that once my ear hears a lot of notes in a line, it shuts down. To my ear, melody is a series of phrases, hopefully building toward some kind of climax. Notes in a line make it very difficult to create phrases, I find, and so you're stuck with a solo that is the scale(s) ... and a solo that is the scale isn't a solo anymore. It's just a scale.

But that's just me. We all have different ways of approaching the art of improvisation. Vive la Difference!

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by solus

(phrygian and *shudder* locrian)

I keep meaning to ask you, solus ... why the *shudder*?