[si16]

Just looking for confirmation of a time signature change in this song which takes place at 2:55

YouTube - Jeff Beck - The Golden Road

I'm thinking it changes to 9/4 or perhaps a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 5/4?

Any ideas?

[Fretsource]

Yes - It's alternating bars of 4 beats and 5 beats. It's not 9/4 (or9/8) as there's no triplet feel. 9/4 is a compound time signature which would sound like:
"ONE two three TWO two three THREE two three".

If the song was written out, then rather than keep changing time signature for every bar, they could show it as 4+5/4, or use two time signatures next to each other 4/4 5/4.
They could also opt for 9/4 and the notation would show where the beats are - but that could be confusing as anyone reading it would expect to hear the usual triplet rhythm.

[carol m]

That's downright depressing! What is the rhythm of the first part? I reckon it's something-4 all the way through, but I couldn't work out what any of it was. And if Simon hadn't drawn the rhythm to my attention I would have noticed nothing at all - I would have just 'listened to the music' - is there any hope for me?

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by carol m

That's downright depressing! What is the rhythm of the first part? I reckon it's something-4 all the way through, but I couldn't work out what any of it was. And if Simon hadn't drawn the rhythm to my attention I would have noticed nothing at all - I would have just 'listened to the music' - is there any hope for me?

If it makes you feel any better, I wouldn't have noticed it either. I would just have gone along with the flow of the music, daydreaming about other things.
As far as I remember from listening, I think the first part is just straightforward 4-something, but not necessarily something-4.

Only the top number of a time signature can be heard. The bottom number is just a number chosen to represent the beat. It's usually 4, but could just as easily be 2, 8 or 16, depending on how you want to notate it. 3/4 at 60BPM for example, sounds exactly the same as 3/8 at 60 BPM.

[si16]

Thanks Fret. So if the top number of a time signature is a multiple of 3 that would indicate a triplet feel?

Carol, I also didn't consciously notice the change. It wasn't until I started thinking about it that I realised the difference. Most of the song is in 4 something but syncopated in parts. If you listen to the part from 0:53 to 1:05 you'll hear that the drummer ends his fills, and, in fact, the chord changes occur, half a beat before the end of the bar.

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by si16

So if the top number of a time signature is a multiple of 3 that would indicate a triplet feel?

Usually, yes. If the top number is a multiple of three, it indicates a compound time signature with the beat unit being a dotted note instead of a normal one. A dotted quarter note = 3 eighth notes, so if there are two dotted quarter note beats per bar, each bar will consist of six eighth notes (or combinations of other notes that add up to 6). 6/8 is the compound equivalent of 2/4. Both have 2 beats per bar

Slow blues music often has that feel. The typical bass for one bar being long-short x4 (e.g., quarter note plus eighth note = one dotted quarter note beat). That would be written as 12/8 time.
It could also be written as 4/4 time meaning that the beat is a normal (not dotted) quarter note, but then the notes within each bar would need to be shown as triplets in order to fit 12 eighth notes into a space designed for 8. Both ways are equally correct.

Forbidden Games, which is one of Kirk's lessons, is an example of 9/8. It's easy to hear the 3 mini beats within each of the 3 main beats per bar. It can be written as 9/8 (with normal eighth notes) or as 3/4 (with triplet eighth notes). I've seen it written both ways.

[carol m]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

Forbidden Games, which is one of Kirk's lessons, is an example of 9/8. It's easy to hear the 3 mini beats within each of the 3 main beats per bar. It can be written as 9/8 (with normal eighth notes) or as 3/4 (with triplet eighth notes). I've seen it written both ways.

So would you count 9/8 as one two three, one two three, one two three to make up one bar of eighth notes (3x3=9), or if it was 3/4 you would count one two three for 1 bar of quarter notes as in a standard waltz?

However I always think of 6/8 as the same as 3/4 for practical purposes - can I get away with that? To me it's the same as 2/4 vs 4/4 = a level of detail for the next grade up because it doesn't seem to matter in practice.

My ex guitar teacher would find the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 endlessly fascinating but after I realised it didn't really matter, my brain would glaze over.

You've stumped me with the 12/8 though because 12 could be 3x4 or 4x3 - or maybe that's what you are saying? Can you think of an example of a recorded slow blues example in 12/8 so we can hear the rhythm?

[Fretsource]

9/8 is counted as three beats per bar. You just count the main dotted quarter note beats - and feel the beats within those beats - or you could say something like:
ONE - trip - let TWO - trip - lets THREE - trip- lets.

3/4 v 6/8
There's a big difference between a measure of six eighth notes in 3/4 (waltz time) and six eighth notes in 6/8 (jig time). In 3/4 the stress is on the first note with some lesser stress on notes 3 & 5. In 6/8 the stress is on notes 1 & 4. Try waltzing to a jig and you'll get the idea.

12/8 is 4 groups of three eighth notes, (never 3 groups of four) so the beat is a dotted quarter note (= 3 eighth notes). Here's an example picked at random from Youtube. As it turns out, it's a really good example. How did we live before youtube?
12/8 blues

[carol m]

Originally Posted by si16

. Most of the song is in 4 something but syncopated in parts. If you listen to the part from 0:53 to 1:05 you'll hear that the drummer ends his fills, and, in fact, the chord changes occur, half a beat before the end of the bar.

Yes you can hear the steady 4 beat but it must be the syncopation variation that makes it hard to put a label on. I'm still not sure I can hear a difference at 2.55 though - I'll listen again.

[carol m]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

Try waltzing to a jig and you'll get the idea.

I tried waltzing to this one......YouTube - The Dubliners - Octopus Jig

can I sue for medical expenses?