[Random Robot]

Ok so I'm doing some homework on modes. I'm curious, do modes work similar to Keys in that the chords go Major minor minor Major Major minor m7b5 and modes sound better over those chords in the same degree. Example: Say we're playing a 1 4 5 2 progression. Will my modes sound better if I play Ionian, Lydian or Mixolydian over the major chords (the 1 4 or 5) and Dorian, Phrgian, Lochrian over the minors (2 3 6) and Aeolian over the diminished (7) rather than just playing diatonically (I think I said taht right, playing one mode for the whole progression)? I'm sure that Fretsource will make me feel like an idiot before this is over but that's how we learn and some day I will learn all this and be able to make someone else feel like an idiot and the cycle will continue

[Kirk Lorange]

It will be exactly the same thing, Random Robot. Whether you play the scale of the I chord or each of the modes against the appropriate chord, you'll be playing the very same seven notes.

[Random Robot]

Thanks for you reply Kirk. I understand that the each mode is just a different starting point/tonal center in the same scale but my question is do certin modes sound "better" against certin chords as a rule of thumb? Thanks again.

[Kirk Lorange]

It would be in non-diatonic music where you'd be thinking modes, for example, you're in the key of D and a F#7 chord comes up. F#7 is not a D-related chord, F#m is. If, when that chord was in play, you thought "F# Mixolydian" you'd be on the money, because the Mixolydian mode takes into account the major 3rd and the flat 7 that are in a F#7.

I prefer to simply track each chord, myself. To me, 'F#7' and 'F# Mixolydian' are the same thing. Greek never was my forte.

[joshimax]

Just how I feel Kirk! It's ALL Greek to me, if it sounds wrong to my ear then I try and keep clear of whatever it was that I just played!!!

[Fretsource]

I'll agree with Kirk and add that you're not actually playing modes (except the Ionian mode), because the song's key/ tonal centre never changes.

Let's say you're in the key of C major and the COTM (chord of the moment) is C maj. You solo using the notes of the C major scale (Ionian mode) and it sounds fine because every note you play relates nicely to the tonal centre, C.
Next, say the COTM changes to G7. You switch to the Mixolydian mode which is GABCDEF. BUT the key of the song is still C. In your and your listeners mind, all of those notes of G mixolydian will be heard in relation to C not to G. All they'll hear is notes of the C major scale. They won't hear the unique sound of the G Mixolydian mode because it has the wrong tonal centre.

Now if your chord progression in C major was I - bVII-IV-I (C-Bb-F-C like the end of Hey Jude, for example)
The chord tones are
C = CEG
Bb = Bb D F
F = FAC
Altogether you have the chord tones CDEFGABbC - which also happens to be the C Mixolydian mode. In that case the Mixolydian would work throughout and fit better than the major scale where the note B would clash with the chord Bb.

[Kirk Lorange]

Thanks, Fretsource, I knew you'd come up with a better example.

[Random Robot]

I new you could do it Fret ,brain starting to vapor lock, so in the example you show "Hey Jude" you say that is in C major with a flat 7, doesn't that make it F maj?
So my new question is if I'm in C maj and playing a II III VI does it sound better to play dorian, phrygian or aeolian over those chords than to play out of ionian, lydian or mixolydian? I was noticing the comparison between the degree from the root for the chord and the mode.

[Fretsource]

No - it's not in F major because we can hear that the tonal centre is C, not F. It couldn't end on F - it would sound very unfinished. The only one of those three chords you could end the song on is C. That's how we know that it's in the key of C with a borrowed foreign chord (Bb) rather than in the key of F. What determines the key of a song is not the chords it contains, but how those chords behave.

As for your other question, my point is that if the key is C then you can't really play D dorian over the ii chord (Dminor) and E Phrygian over the iii chord (E minor) and expect them to sound like those modes are supposed to sound. They'll just come out sounding like C major.
I'm not sure if I understand the other part of your question - "would it be better to play Ionian, Lydian or Mixolydian instead?" Do you mean C Ionian, or C Lydian or C Mixolydian throughout the chord progression?
C Ionian will work fine - with no surprises.
C Lydian contains F# so you'd need to be careful as the ii chord (D minor) contains F. But the F# over the C and Em chords could sound interesting.
C Mixolydian contains Bb and you'd need to be careful when chord iii comes along as it contains B. Again, though, that Bb could sound interesting over the other 2 chords.

[Random Robot]

That sounds made up, did you make that up, I think thats made up. I've got a song with an intro of D Dsus2 D6th Verse D G Bm Am C Pre Chorus F G Chorus D C G C Bridge D F G
I play some lead out of G but are you saying the song is out of D with a minor 3rd, minor 5th and a flattend 7th because thats the tonal center? So if your playing dorian mode in the key of G you call it A Dorian because the targeted note is A? Well if thats the case then things are starting to make a little more sense. If the tonal center of my song is D and I'm playing lead out of G then I'm actually playing G Lydian? Ok Fret your turn to make me hurt some more.

[Fretsource]

Sorry Random - You've lost me a bit.
Are you saying your song is in the key of D major? With those chords, it looks more like G than D to me. (with F being a foreign visitor, adding a little exotic touch). Are you sure the tonal centre is D? Depending on how the chords are played, it could be either - only you can tell by listening which chord is acting as the tonal centre. But with those chords, it would be much easier to make G the tonal centre than D (too many foreign chords like C, Am and F)

"Playing lead out of G" Does that mean you're using the G major scale to solo with? If the song really is in G then that would explain why your lead in G works so well.

"If you're playing Dorian mode in the key of G..."
Personally I never use modes for tonal/ diatonic music, (they were designed for modal music) but if I did, the only Dorian mode I'd play in the key of G is G Dorian - not A Dorian as that would just be the G major scale starting on A. There would be no point in calling it anything other than G major.

But G Dorian would give me G A Bb C D E F G
Only two of those notes aren't part of the G major scale: Bb and F, both of which are so-called 'blue notes' (flat 3rd and flat 7th). So it would work nicely in a bluesy type of song.

I think when you analyse keys scales and modes in this way, it becomes more like science than art, which defeats the purpose of making music, IMO. Kirk's (and many others) approach to soloing by thinking in terms of chord tones, rather than modes or scales, cuts out all those unnecessary calculations - and your head wouldn't hurt so much.

[hb]

Originally Posted by Random Robot

Ok so I'm doing some homework on modes. I'm curious, do modes work similar to Keys in that the chords go Major minor minor Major Major minor m7b5 and modes sound better over those chords in the same degree. Example: Say we're playing a 1 4 5 2 progression. Will my modes sound better if I play Ionian, Lydian or Mixolydian over the major chords (the 1 4 or 5) and Dorian, Phrgian, Lochrian over the minors (2 3 6) and Aeolian over the diminished (7) rather than just playing diatonically (I think I said taht right, playing one mode for the whole progression)? I'm sure that Fretsource will make me feel like an idiot before this is over but that's how we learn and some day I will learn all this and be able to make someone else feel like an idiot and the cycle will continue

Whewwwwww!!!....no disrespect here, but I'm sure glad I have PT!. Sounds like communication from the space shuttle!!! Sorry so stupid.
hb

[Cakesteex]

Hey everyone... how do I search for more than one word in other posts, so that it returns only posts with those two words?

[Random Robot]

Fret, The song I'm talking about sounds like it's out of D, I know that I've had the argument with my bass player about what key the song is in. He says D, I take the other chords on the song and deduct that it's in G. Your example is in F but you call it C with a borrowed foreign chord because C is the Tonal Center then wouldn't you say my example is in D with some borrowed foreign chords? It sounds a bit like potato "poe tate oh". I guess 1st there was music then someone came along put set barriers and limits to what that music "can" do, gave it a name and anything outside of that is wrong, kind of kills creativity a little bit don't you think but anyways....So back to modes, is it best to stay in one mode thru out a song and if you going to use more than one mone would you say that it's best for modal music?

[Fretsource]

Random, if your song sounds like it's in D, then it's in D. I suggested G because of how the chords look.
But how they look means nothing compared to how they sound. It means you're playing those chords in such a way that D is heard as the most important chord, i.e., the tonal centre. That means it's in the key of D

It's exactly the same as Paul McCartney did with the end of Hey Jude example that I mentioned. He used chords (C-Bb-F-C) that look like they belong to F major. but we can hear by the way he uses them that the tonal centre isn't F at all, but C (same key as the rest of the song) The end progression constantly resolves to C major - so C major is the key and the Bb chord is foreign.
So you're in good company.

As for changing modes within a song, that would depend on the effects you want to achieve. Old modal music (e.g., folk) rarely changes mode. Modal jazz probably changes mode often - I don't know. Scotty B and some others are well up on all things jazzy and might reply.

But going back to your first example, my point is that if you're only using chords that belong to a particular key, but solo by changing mode to match the root of each chord as it comes along, then you're not really changing mode at all. You're still playing the same notes of the same major scale, as Kirk pointed out.