[__tsidewinder__]

Hello all, I haven't been here a while, haven't had much time. I've had a teacher now for something like 4-5 months now, and have learned, a good amount I'd say.

So this is what I have in fact learned: The major scale, completely, everywhere on the neck, divided into 5 different patterns.

The major and minor triads everywhere on the neck, completely, within the five patterns of the major scale. although sometimes it will take me a bit to think of where they are in certain positions.

And along with that, some theory, although I won't talk about all that.

So with the major and minor triads, mixed with the major scale, I can now fairly comfortably improvise in any key using chord tones. Still needs practice of course.

Now here is the dilemma: the last month has been spent trying to learn how to change keys, while improvising. This has proven to be a real issue for me, and my teacher just can't seem to put it in terms I can understand, that is, really down to earth terms.

When I try to change keys, I have to sort of "see the key coming" and prepare for it, while I am still playing in the original key. This is an issue, and short of stopping and thinking about the new key, I just can't seem to do it in any efficient manner.

This problem has caused a ton of stress and frustration for me, I am on wit's end, and honestly anyone who can help me here would be amazing, I will probably giggle with delight when I fix this stupid problem.

[Fretsource]

I think this highlights an advantage of following the chord tones rather than scale tones. If you're basing your improvisation on a scale, then as you said, when the key changes you'll have to hear it coming, so you can switch to the new scale at the right time.

On the other hand, if you're basing your improvisation on chord tones then the new key won't be a problem, as the chord tones of each chord will be right for whatever key is in place at any time.

[justinthyme]

PlaneTalk

[__tsidewinder__]

hold on fretsource. You mean you do JUST chord tones, and do not pay attention to the major scale? Because that would leave you very limited in options, and you wouldn't have any way to add in between notes, besides guessing. The whole point behind theory in improf I figure is to screw the guesswork, and know exactly what you are doing at any one point.

Even so, you are right, chord tones would make a smooth transition. But then I am lost for the in between notes.

[Lcjones]

***

Pardon my intrusion to a very deep subject....

....in reality though, key changes are rare except in a Broadway musical. I'm not too sure I would dwell too long on changing keys within a guitar based song.

But I completely understand learning the theory of such action.

**

[Fong]

One thing I don't understand is, wouldn't you need to know the chords in the chord change for chord tones to work?

So aren't you in the same position whether you are using chord tones or scales? You need to know it is coming.

I think perhaps the OP is under the impression that people can play around within Key Changes without knowing they are coming.

I don't think that is possible whatever system you use, since you would have to have prior knowledge of the music with either system.

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by __tsidewinder__

hold on fretsource. You mean you do JUST chord tones, and do not pay attention to the major scale?

No, I also pay attention to the major scale, or to the minor scale if it's in a minor key, so that I'll know how the non-chord tones will sound in that key.

What I meant is that when it changes key, the chord tones, which are the most important tones, will obviously still sound fine in the new key. The non-chord tones, most of which are just passing notes between two chord tones can't do a lot of harm even if, at first, you choose the one that doesn't directly belong to the new key. It just means you'll hear a chromatic passing note instead of the diatonic passing note you were expecting, which also lets you know a key change is in progress.

[__tsidewinder__]

To LC Jones: In symphonic music there are plenty of key changes, and I asssume other genres too. The thing is, if I understand key changes, I can start using them in song writing. One key is limiting, when you control all keys you are free.

To Fong: Yes, you do need to know the chord tones that are coming. And I need to know the scale as well.

To fretsource: The way I improvise starts with the scale and takes chord tones out of that scale. If I know what scale I should be playing, I also know all the chord tones in that key and all of the notes within that key. So the main issue is changing from one scale to another, while at the same time paying attention and remembering which is the new chord I'm playing.

I just want to know how you guys do it.

[jdpaz]

From what you've written it seems you understand how the major scale shape moves up and down the neck depending on which key you're in.

Think about where the root note of the new key shows up in your original key's scale shape. That note would be a good one to shoot for at the end of your modulation between keys. This will be the root note of your new key---imagine what the scale shape looks like with the root in this new spot.

In the measure before the key change, play the first half of the measure using the original key scale, then in the second half of that measure switch to the shifted scale shape (probably end that measure on the 7 of the new key). Make sure you land on the root right at the key change.

Anyway, just a few thoughts, your mileage may vary.