[NoQuestion]

I'm learning melodic and harmonic scales in the key of E minor right now. Can someone tell me what the difference is between the two scales? What makes a melodic scale a melodic scale, and what makes a harmonic scale a harmonic scale?

[gravitas]

Melodic and Harmonic scales are present in all forms of music. They are merely slightly altered forms of the Natural Minor scale.

The Melodic Minor has a sharpened 6th and a sharpened 7th, so, if it was played in the Key of A minor (which has no flats or sharps in its natural form), it would look like this:

A B C D E F# G# A

The Harmonic Minor has only one sharpened note, and it is the 7th. In A minor, it would look like this:

A B C D E F G# A

The reason that these two scales are only applicable in the minor scale format is because a major scale already has a raised 7th, so raising the 7th further would only bring us to an octave (ie, the root note 8 steps up).

I've displayed the scales in A minor because offering them in something like A# Minor would give us double sharps, which are a little further ahead, and needn't worry you until you get to them.

Hope I've managed to help. Cheers.

[NoQuestion]

That helps a lot! Thank you!

[gravitas]

Glad to see it did. Are you in Middle School or just starting High School?

[DavidP]

I am not a music theory expert, but I've done some research on this subject. The melodic minor raises the 6 and 7 on the way up the scale. If you are descending the scale, they are left alone. In the key of A minor, you have:

A B C D E F# G# A if you are ascending the scale.
A G F E D C B A if you are descending the scale.

The harmonic minor raises only the 7. That was originally done so that you could have the V7 - i ending to musical phrases. In the key of A minor, that would have an ending of E7 - Am. The E7 chord is comprised of E-G#-B-D notes. The G is the 7 note of the A minor scale. It has been sharped so that you can get the E7 chord.

Hope that helps.

[Greggers]

Melodic Minor formula = 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7
Harmonic Minor Formula = 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7

So E melodic Minor = E F# G A B C# D#
E Harmonic Minor = E F# G A B C D#

Hope this helps

[stratwrassler]

Unless you are playing neo-classical metal runs, or maybe be-bop jazz, you're probably not going to play alot of music using alot of notes from either of these.

It is good to learn about them because they do pop-up in other music in small bits here and there.

In bluesy, funky, country, or rock stuff, you will borrow notes from these scales from time to time as "altered" notes for Dominant 7th chords. Also, alot of chromatic/passing tones can be defined or described with theory coming from those scales. Usually some kind of V7 substitution going on.

Hope this made some sense. If not, hopefully someone will drop in and translate for you, heh.

Peace,
Rick

[InvincibleKid]

they're right about ascending and descending melodic minor. it's got the raised 6th and 7th on the way up but played in natural minor on the way down.

and just a little sumpin' sumpin' to put away in the ole brain: melodic and harmonic minor are often just notated as minor because all three forms can be used in the same piece without having the effect of chaning keys. ps: minor is awsome!!

[gravitas]

Originally Posted by InvincibleKid

and just a little sumpin' sumpin' to put away in the ole brain: melodic and harmonic minor are often just notated as minor because all three forms can be used in the same piece without having the effect of chaning keys.

Ah, but so can the major 3rd and major 7th. And once you're past all that, doesn't that minor second just sound so damned cool?

You know your scales, man, and everything sounds good if you use it right. I'm learning gypsy intervals right now. You know, they were bluesy even before there were Blues to speak about? And they sounded neo-classical before classical was neo. Cool, eh?

[Donovan]

Gravitas, I also dig a lot of those 1,b2,3 scales, I think the one you mentioned is called the Byzantine scale (also double harmonic I think) 1,b2,3,4,5,b6,7. It has two minor third intervals (b2->3 , b6->7) which gives it that neat middle-eastern sound. Some others are:

Spanish, Jewish or Dominant/Major Phrygian - 1,b2,3,4,5,b6,b7
Persian - 1,b2,3,4,b5,b6,7
Gypsy - 1,b2,3,4,5,6,b7

Not 100% sure if these names are correct, because I checked them with GuitarPro, but the forms are pretty cool to experiment with

[wblakesx]

Alot of flamenco is phrygian ( 3rd mode of the Major ), but the 5th mode of the Hm is even better. My way ( only one of many ) is to see scales as perfect ( 1, 4, 5 as perfect intervals ) or imperfect ( #4 or b5 ), and then look to the modal tones ( 7, 3, 6, 2, in that order, ie dorian, mixolydian, minor, phrygian ). Once a tone in introduced with some logic, it becomes more or less freely available till 12 tones are available. Of course stylistic conventions sort of govern....

[InvincibleKid]

Originally Posted by gravitas

Ah, but so can the major 3rd and major 7th. And once you're past all that, doesn't that minor second just sound so damned cool?

You know your scales, man, and everything sounds good if you use it right. I'm learning gypsy intervals right now. You know, they were bluesy even before there were Blues to speak about? And they sounded neo-classical before classical was neo. Cool, eh?

I've been learning theory for the last year. Theoretically, I know all the scales and modes and such, but I haven't learned how to play through them all on my guitar. I guess you just have to take it one scale at a time, every mode of that scale, starting on every interval. E harmonic minor is the first one i'm trying.

the Guitar Grimoire is gonna be an invaluable tool. I recomend getting it for anyone inteding to learn scales and modes.

What are these gypsy scales you speak of. Can I find them in the Grimoire, ya think?

[wblakesx]

5 modes of the ionian have both a p4 and p5: major, mixolydian, dorian, minor, phrygian.
2 modes of the ionion don't: the lydian has a #4 but p5, the locrian a b5 and p4
other than the p1(&8vas), the p4, & p5, there are 4 model tones, the 7,3,6,&2 which may be played as major or minor, ie natural or flat.
there are afew gypsy scales, the hungarian is very useful and is a mode ( starting on the 5th ) of the Harm minor. There are some greek ( rebetica ) scales which can't be drived from the above ( some very quirky scales ), but most of the most useful scales can.

[gravitas]

Originally Posted by InvincibleKid

I've been learning theory for the last year. Theoretically, I know all the scales and modes and such, but I haven't learned how to play through them all on my guitar. I guess you just have to take it one scale at a time, every mode of that scale, starting on every interval. E harmonic minor is the first one i'm trying.

the Guitar Grimoire is gonna be an invaluable tool. I recomend getting it for anyone inteding to learn scales and modes.

What are these gypsy scales you speak of. Can I find them in the Grimoire, ya think?

But that's the problem! The key to being a good soloist and- more importantly- an emotive player, is to know how to sound good without getting hung up on the details. If you learn a scale, fine. But don't let that dictate how you play.

I heard about an interesting study the other day from my guitar teacher. If the human ear is exposed to the same sounds for too long, it accepts them as fact, and anything that differs from them is pereived as wrong. But there are so many different tones and textures than just modes and the pentanoic scale! You can't let yourelf think in such a linear fashion.

For example, try playing a third and a sharp second in unison. That's a dissonant, ballsy move. It can sound good if you want it to, though. Try bending or resolving up.

Another one of my favourite moves is that riff from Welcome to the Jungle- that swaggering one in E that Slash plays about halfway through the song. I've pirated it a few times- never exactly that but something similar. I think what he's using is called a tritone, but I'm not positive, and frankly, I don't care. It's before the second solo, if anyone cares to learn it. Looks like this:

|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------6/7-------------9-------9-----9---6/7------------------12---12---|
|-------5/6-------------9-------9-----9---5/6------------------12---12---|
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|---0---------0----0---------0-------------------0-------0---------------|

|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|-------6/7-------------9-------9-----9---6/7------------------12---12---|
|-------5/6-------------9-------9-----9---5/6------------------12---12---|
|------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|---0---------0----0---------0-------------------0-------0---------------|