[blackfoot]

Hi

Great forum and site. Thanks to everyone for the welcome.

I am learning to play the guitar. I have been playing for three days now. (I have some experience with the mandolin).

I am very confused with the CAGED system and would appreciate it if someone could straighten me out.

I am learning to play the CAGED chords but when I transfer the notes as played on to music paper I see that effectively each chord is in its own key since variably, they are playing a major so for instance the C is playing in the C key (the C scale CEG) and A is playing in the A key since it is playing A C# and E and in the key of A I know that C, F and G are raised by a semitone. Similarly G is G, B and E.

So this is confusing me, because if I am to progress to play a tune or song (say a blues rythmn in the key of say G) then I would play a I-IV-V sequence which would be the chords of GCD. So are these chords GCD all played in the key of G (with the F#) or are they to be played in their individual keys? Surely we do not change key in mid-tune?

I do hope I am clear.

Thank you for taking the time to help.

[rwjones3]

You seem to be trying to digest a lot of info for day three of your guitar playing. I don't know that you need to be thinging about CAGED just yet. But here here's my stab at explaining:

For your I-IV-V example in G, The key is G so you only have one sharp F#. The chord tones are GBD for G chord, CEG for C chord, and DF# A for D chord so all your chord tones are in the key of G.

The CAGED system only deals with chord shapes. As these shapes are moved up the fretboard the actual notes change as the form moves. For example you can play the G chord using the (E) form if you place the form at the 3rd fret, the notes of the chord would still be GBD. If you slide this (E) form up one fret you are playing an Ab chord with notes Ab C Eb. etc.

One way to apply the the CAGED with the I IV V would be to play the (E) form at the third fret (G chord), then the (A) form at the 3rd fret (C chord) and then the (A) form now on the 5 fret (D chord). In another example you could play the (D) form at the 5th fret (G chord), the (A) form at the 3rd fret (C chord), and then the (C) form at the 2nd fret (D chord). Keep applying approach and you end up being able to play I IV V in any key anywhere on the neck of the guitar.

Hope this helps,
Robert

[allthumbs]

Go through some of the theory lessons in the lessons forum. There are lessons there on the subjects you are asking about. I agree that you might be trying to swallow too much info at once. Take smaller bites. Understanding keys, caged and chord construction is not something you are going to learn in a week or two.

[billywhitebread]

wutdi dhesay?

[Tekker]

Originally Posted by blackfoot

I am learning to play the CAGED chords but when I transfer the notes as played on to music paper I see that effectively each chord is in its own key since variably, they are playing a major so for instance the C is playing in the C key (the C scale CEG) and A is playing in the A key since it is playing A C# and E and in the key of A I know that C, F and G are raised by a semitone. Similarly G is G, B and E.

What you are describing are the notes in a chord, this is very different from the concept of keys. Any one of those chords can belong to more than one key. For example, the C chord can belong to the keys of C major, F major, or G major.

Keys consist of a group of chords built off of the major scale (for major keys) or the minor scale (for minor keys). Of this group of chords, there will be one specific chord that is the "home" chord called the tonic. In other words, this tonic provides the best resolution (or "ending"). To hear what the tonic sounds like here is an example:

Play the following chords and on the D7 let it ring out for a little while before playing the G chord.
G C D7 ....... G

Holding that D7 out allows you to really hear how well the G chord resolves (ends) the progression. In this example G is the tonic.

So to answer your question on keys, the tonic chord of any song (or progression) is the key of the song.


But how do you know what chords you can play in any given key? The answer comes from the major/minor scales.

I have a very detailed explanation of this in the lessons forum, I would recommend starting from the top and reading down to the section on keys called "Keys - Creating Chords from the Major Scale".
Here's the link:
Music Theory Basics

I would start there, make sure you have a very firm grasp on this before attacking the CAGED system. Also, I highly recommend Kirk's PlaneTalk book/DVD. It is EXCELLENT! Much more useful than the CAGED system IMO.

(say a blues rythmn in the key of say G) then I would play a I-IV-V sequence which would be the chords of GCD. So are these chords GCD all played in the key of G (with the F#) or are they to be played in their individual keys? Surely we do not change key in mid-tune?

Those chords are all in the key of G.

You can change keys in mid-tune (via different methods) or use chords that are "outside" the key, but your example with G C D (and the F# diminished) is definitely all in the key of G.

Hope that helps. And if you have any questions, we'll try our best to answer them.

-tkr

[Stratrat]

A given chord will always be "built" from the same notes, regardless of what key its played in. The difference is their context/role in the key. 'G' is the I in the key of G, the IV in the key of D, and the V in the key of C - in each case, it's the same 'G' chord, with the same notes and the same fingerings all up and down the fretboard.

[Kirk Lorange]

Just to add to the confusion:

The concept of the 'key' to me is more of a family of notes and chords, all coming from the tonic chord, the I. The same scale that generates the I chord generates the other 6 'related' chords.

However!

In the blues/jazz/r&B genres -- modern music -- you can't really think 'key' like you can in folk/traditional country/classical. In the blues, all of the I-IV-V chords can (and usually are) dom7 chords; in the other batch, only the V chord is. This becomes painfully obvious (to the ears) when trying to improvise over the blues when using the major scale of the I chord, as you can sometimes get away with in the non-blues genres.

The Blues breaks a whole bunch of so-called rules.

That's why, in my opinion, it's easier to approach all forms of music one chord at a time. Know which genre it comes form, of course, and know what the related chords are in whatever key, but don't rely on scales if you're going to tackle improvisation. Rely on chords, they're a much better and safer and universal way to go.

The blues scale came about (I guess) in order to allow a scale mindset to playing the blues, but it's very restrictive once you get to know the other approach via the chords. Why restrict yourself to 5 or 6 notes when there are 12?

OK ... now that I've thoroughly confused you, I'll leave it at that, but as others have answered above:

CAGED is a way of looking at one chord, how it occupies the whole fretboard.

Key is about several chords and how they related to each other through their genesis.

The Blues breaks just about all the rules concerning key, so don't tear your hair out trying to apply them to this genre.

[felixdcat]

Think in the moment.

[Ben_Sir_Amos]

When I was learning music, I was taught that the I, IV and V chords were the "primary triads". They are the only three major chords that can be played using only the notes in that major scale.

Using only the notes in the major scale of G, the only major triads you can make are I, IV and V (= G, C and D in the key of G, as in your example). If you are only using those three chords, you don't need to change key and you don't need accidentals.

Using only the notes in the major scale, you can make other chords (minor chords, for example) and you will still be in the same key.

Gosh, that's stilted. Writing about music is like dancing about architecture (to misquote a phrase).

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by Ben_Sir_Amos

Gosh, that's stilted. Writing about music is like dancing about architecture (to misquote a phrase).

Stilted? - nah. I thought that was pretty concise and straight to the point

[Ben_Sir_Amos]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

Stilted? - nah. I thought that was pretty concise and straight to the point

Thanks, but I used "only" six times and "using" four times in those first three short paragraphs so it didn't feel very natural.

[Kirk Lorange]

Like I often say, the hardest thing about music is explaining in words how it works.