[solidwalnut]

I have a question for the theory gurus.

Communicating a chord progression using Roman Numerals for a song in a minor key seems akward. For example, take the song Stray Cat Strut or Sultans of Swing in the key of Dm (or any of the million songs written with this same basic progression).

Dm...C...Bb...A

I've seen it written as Song Name, Key of Dm:

i...VII...VI...V

But it seems more correct to my brain to think of the key of Dm minor as the relative minor of the key of F. So I would expect to see:

Song Name, Key of F

vi...V...IV...III

Which do you think is the correct way to communicate the progression? Since the Roman Numeral system has nothing to do with traditional theory teaching, I suppose that either answer is just a matter of taste, but what do you say?

A side question, with similar connotations is: since a song in a minor key has intervals different from the major (b3, b6, b7), would you consider any chord progressions to be not related to it's native mode (aeolian)? In other words, does a song written in a minor key stand on it's own theory-wise, or is it related to the major scale?

[allthumbs]

I think key signatures tell the story. There is no way to notate minor keys in a sig so ,clearly in standard, at least, they are considered a subset of a major key.
I use the term minor key but, in the back of my mind I know it is a convenient fiction. I therefor always use small Roman Numerals to indicate minors.

[Fretsource]

Hi Steve
Definitely, the first way. Writing it as vi...V...IV...III would convey the wrong information. Those numbers don't just mean the scale note that the chord is built on. More importantly they tell us the what the function of each chord is.
Chord I in major or chord i in minor is always the tonic chord, i.e the home or key chord. When we hear it we can hear that quality and can base our thinking and playing around that, such as moving away from it or towards it.
It's really just a coincidence that F major and D minor have the same notes, (they both originated from the same diatonic note set)but the fact that they do means they are related, hence the names relative major and minor.
They are related - but they aren't the same.
The minor key is completely independent of its relative major. In terms of the function of chords, (the I IV V thing) the minor key is more closely related to the parallel major, rather than the relative major.
So D minor is similar to D major in the sense that they both point to the note D as the all important key centre. And both resolve to that note and major or minor chord via the same V7, or Dominant 7th chord: A7.
D natural minor scale can't produce A7, only Am7, as it doesn't have the note C#, so it borrows the 7th degree of the D major scale: C#, which results in the harmonic minor scale D E F G A Bb C# D.

Roman numeral names do have a lot to do with traditional theory - that's where the usage comes from.

[monk]

Solid,
Since the song is in D minor not F, the first way would be most correct.

When deciphering or analysing songs in minor keys, you have to consider both the Natural Minor and Harmonic Minor.

The Harmonic Minor scale was devised to produce a Major or Dominant Seventh chord on the harmonised fifth degree of the scale; something the Natural Minor lacks. This produces a stronger pull back to the Tonic but also creates small problems like IIImaj7#5.

This is where common practice and modal interchange come into play. Modal interchange is the practice of using two different root-related scale harmonies as a harmonic pallette. (C major-C Natural Minor or, in this case, A Harmonic Minor-A Natural Minor)

Modal interchange can be used with either Triadic or Diatonic harmony. The easiest way to do this is to line the chords up, top line & bottom line, to see your options.

The common I-bVII-IV progression from the 70s is a product of same root Major-Natural Minor modal interchange.

Regards,
Monk

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

Hi Steve
Definitely, the first way. Writing it as vi...V...IV...III would convey the wrong information. Those numbers don't just mean the scale note that the chord is built on. More importantly they tell us the what the function of each chord is.
Chord I in major or chord i in minor is always the tonic chord, i.e the home or key chord. When we hear it we can hear that quality and can base our thinking and playing around that, such as moving away from it or towards it.
It's really just a coincidence that F major and D minor have the same notes, (they both originated from the same diatonic note set)but the fact that they do means they are related, hence the names relative major and minor.
They are related - but they aren't the same.
The minor key is completely independent of its relative major. In terms of the function of chords, (the I IV V thing) the minor key is more closely related to the parallel major, rather than the relative major.
So D minor is similar to D major in the sense that they both point to the note D as the all important key centre. And both resolve to that note and major or minor chord via the same V7, or Dominant 7th chord: A7.
D natural minor scale can't produce A7, only Am7, as it doesn't have the note C#, so it borrows the 7th degree of the D major scale: C#, which results in the harmonic minor scale D E F G A Bb C# D.

Roman numeral names do have a lot to do with traditional theory - that's where the usage comes from.

Ok, thanks for that Fret. Tell me about what you mean in regard to the parallel major being more closely related.

Thanks,

Steve

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by monk

Solid,
Since the song is in D minor not F, the first way would be most correct.

When deciphering or analysing songs in minor keys, you have to consider both the Natural Minor and Harmonic Minor.

The Harmonic Minor scale was devised to produce a Major or Dominant Seventh chord on the harmonised fifth degree of the scale; something the Natural Minor lacks. This produces a stronger pull back to the Tonic but also creates small problems like IIImaj7#5.

This is where common practice and modal interchange come into play. Modal interchange is the practice of using two different root-related scale harmonies as a harmonic pallette. (C major-C Natural Minor or, in this case, A Harmonic Minor-A Natural Minor)

Modal interchange can be used with either Triadic or Diatonic harmony. The easiest way to do this is to line the chords up, top line & bottom line, to see your options.

The common I-bVII-IV progression from the 70s is a product of same root Major-Natural Minor modal interchange.

Regards,
Monk

Ok, thanks for that Monk. Tell me, what comes into play in the consideration of how a minor scale is harmonized then? Both the natural and harmonic. In this case, is the result 'relative' to their major?

So am I missing the point and this also is where modal interchange comes into play?

Thanks,

Steve

[monk]

Steve,
The main reason for the existance of the Harmonic Minor scale is to create the Major triad or Dominant Seventh on the Fifth degree of the scale.

A look at the chords below will tell you that most of the chords you might want to use in playing, arranging or writing pop/rock/folk/country songs are going to come from the natural minor harmony.

You'll see that A Natural Minor harmony is "relative" to C Major. Same chords, different starting point.

Since we use the major scale as point of reference, minor harmony would be written as follows:

Natural minor- i iidim bIII iv v VI VII
Harmonic minor- i iidim bIIIaug iv V VI viidim

Most of the time the only thing you need from harmonic minor is the V or V7.

Triads for Natural & Harmonic Minor

A Natural Minor: Am Bdim C Dm Em F G

A Harmonic Minor: Am Bdim C+ Dm E F G#dim


Diatonic Sevenths for Natural & Harmonic Minor

A Natural Minor: Am7 Bm7b5 Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7

A Harmonic Minor: Am Maj7 Bm7b5 Cmaj7#5 Dm7 E7 Fmaj7 G#dim7


For modal Interchange, you would compare harmonies from Major to Minor or vice versa.

Major: A Bm C#m D E F#m G#dim

Minor: Am Bdim C Dm Em F G

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Monk

[solidwalnut]

Yes, it does. Thanks for the info, Monk.

[Fretsource]

Hi Steve
I just saw your question to me about the parallel major/ minor. I'm in Thailand at the moment so normal service is somewhat affected.

I think Monk covered that particular point well in his last paragraph regarding modal interchange. You can see from the two sets of chords of the parallel major and minor keys how closely related they are, not only in their harmonic make up but also in their function.
The tonal centre is everything, and both of them (unlike the relative major and minor) have the same tonal centre: A. The only difference is that they are different modes of A. (major mode and minor mode). They do the same job in different ways and can freely borrow from each other's mode (hence the term modal interchange) wherever required for the best of both worlds.

The parallel major and minor keys (e.g., A maj and A min) are really just two different modes of the same key.

The relative major and minor keys (e.g., C maj and A min) are completely different and independent keys that happen to have the same notes but not the same key centre. The harmonic form of A minor does provide the extra note G# but that has limited usefulness to the key of C major. Usually when we see it in the key of C major it signifies a key change to A minor anyway.

[solidwalnut]

Fret--

Thanks, I see what you and Monk both mean, and I thank you both for some great info.

So, is it fair to conclude that it's only a coincidence that the mideaval modes are sometimes related to the major and minor scales as we know them? In particular in this case the A Aeolian as it relates to the Am key using the natural scale, and then of course C Ionian for the major scale?

Thanks,

Steve

[Fretsource]

Steve
That's exactly right about the modes being related to the major scale/key in the same way that the minor key is related to the major. I was tempted to mention that fact, but didn't want to muddy the waters.
So, it is a coincidence, but it's not really a wild coincidence.

At first there were only 7 notes: A B C D E F & G. Sharps and flats lay in the future, which is a good thing as it makes explaining this a lot easier.
If you think about it, there are only so many ways to arrange those 7 notes into the scales that provide the notes for melodies. 7 different ways, in fact.
Using those 7 notes, you could write melodies that treat A as the most important note (tonal centre). The obvious way to classify such melodies is by showing the 7 notes as a scale starting on A - (calling it the Aeolian mode wasn't nearly so obvious, but that's what they did)

Similarly, you could take those 7 notes A B C D E F & G and write melodies that treat D as the most important note, Again, the obvious way to classify such melodies is by putting the notes in order of pitch but starting from D. i.e., D E F G A B & C. That's what they did and called that scale the Dorian Mode, as you know.

You can choose any one of those 7 notes to be the main note of your melody. But they'll each have a unique quality. A melody that treats A as the most important note, or tonal centre, will have a very different quality to one that treats C as the most important note. (one sounds brightly major, the other sounds darkly minor) That's because the intervals between the 7 notes aren't equal.
After the modes started to die out around 1700+ the new and improved major and minor scales reigned supreme.
So A minor, for example, was seen as the relative minor to C major as it had the same notes, but it wasn't considered a mode of C major - it never had been.
But somewhere along the way since the 'rediscovery' of the modes in the 20th century, the modes are now often seen by many as 'modes of the major scale'. Such a concept would have been impossible in medieval times as the major scale (or Ionian mode as it was then) wasn't highly regarded at all. It's very rare, in fact, among any of the surviving manuscripts. It only became popular by default, as the other modes were dying out (before their rebirth in the world of Jazz).

Before I go - just a quick amendment to something I said earlier in my previous post. When I said the parallel major and minor scales have a very similar harmonic make up, that's not quite right - only chords V of the major and harmonic minor are exactly the same. The others have different flavours, e.g. chord IV and iv, and some others even have a different root e.g chord iii and III - these differences provide a greatly expanded harmonic choice when you interchange the major and minor modes.

[solidwalnut]

Thanks Fret. Good info. Always great to get the real scoop from you.

[LMay]

In response to the first question about notation:

There is a BIG difference between the "keys" (actually modes) of Dm and F major. That difference is the V chord. The V chord in the key of Dm is A7. In the key of F Major,it is C7.

In addition, there can be different chords in a minor key, depending upon whether you are using the harmonic minor scale or the melodic minor scale.

So--although the RELATIVE MINOR key has the same KEY SIGNATURE as the major scale, the actual chords in the minor progression present quite a different picture.

Excellent question, though!! I am using the questions in this forum for ideas for new lessons on my website--SO THANK YOU!

Lynne May
May Music Studio

[felixdcat]

Originally Posted by LMay

In response to the first question about notation:

There is a BIG difference between the "keys" (actually modes) of Dm and F major. That difference is the V chord. The V chord in the key of Dm is A7. In the key of F Major,it is C7.

In addition, there can be different chords in a minor key, depending upon whether you are using the harmonic minor scale or the melodic minor scale.

So--although the RELATIVE MINOR key has the same KEY SIGNATURE as the major scale, the actual chords in the minor progression present quite a different picture.

Excellent question, though!! I am using the questions in this forum for ideas for new lessons on my website--SO THANK YOU!

Lynne May
May Music Studio

I've seen the analogy somewhere, but I was wondering why it happens? It's not natural minor scale, or?

[felixdcat]

Originally Posted by felixdcat

I've seen the analogy somewhere, but I was wondering why it happens? It's not natural minor scale, or?

So it's harmonic minor, not natural. Answered my own question.