[Nem]

say I had a rhythm section playing some progression in the key of c major and ontop of that rhythm i chose to write a melody which i guess is based on A aeolian

at which point of the C major progression could i switch from the aeolian mode over to maybe something like harmonic minor? would that scale work in that progression? because im assuming there might be some dissonance when played over the c major progression

or could i need to modulate and change keys first before i could play harmonic minor? or maybe theres a harmonic minor scale with a certain root which works in the key of c?

...I guess at the end of the day, this question isnt about harmonic minor, more about when you can use scales which arent relative to the key youre in ie all the modes would work when your progression is based around the ionian mode, but what happens when you step out of that and into things like harmonic, melodic minor, blues scale etc

[allthumbs]

Boy I am glad I don't play scales. Gave me a headache just reading that. Nelsonite can probably help you with that one.

[Kirk Lorange]

Hi, Nem.

Why don't you just look for a melody you like? Worry about the scale (if you need to) once you've found it, using your ear as the judge. You seem to be implying that a scale of some sort is going to create it for you ... you have to do that.

But, to answer your question ... if you were to look for melody via a scale, in the key of C, why not the C scale?

[gravitas]

I have a question. How come we demonize the scale so much here? I don't want to commit some egregious error in asking, having not yet had the pleasure of purchasing Planetalk (though I plan to place it on order just as soon as I get the cash!), I'm just a little in the dark as to what the philosophy to guitar playing is around these parts. If it's knowledge only to be imparted upon receiving the book, I'm totally cool with that; it'll just make me enjoy the book more for the waiting.

[allthumbs]

Originally Posted by gravitas

I have a question. How come we demonize the scale so much here? I don't want to commit some egregious error in asking, having not yet had the pleasure of purchasing Planetalk (though I plan to place it on order just as soon as I get the cash!), I'm just a little in the dark as to what the philosophy to guitar playing is around these parts. If it's knowledge only to be imparted upon receiving the book, I'm totally cool with that; it'll just make me enjoy the book more for the waiting.

It is not so much demonize as trying to counter the mistaken belief of a lot of players that scales are the perfect means to play music. They are a tool and usefull in context,but can suck you in to a lifetime of mediocre playing if your not carefull. Scales are not melodic by nature. How often do you walk down the street whistling a scale? Melody likes big jumps all over the fretboard. Scales are linier and tend to go in fixed patterns. We have become accustomed to hearing scales so much in music now because they are easy to burn into muscle memory so you can play them very very fast. The downside is that you are not thinking your way through a tune and tend to sound generic. Often a scale riff seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the underlying chords. In other words you could isolate the scale from the tune and find it very difficult to figure out what tune it was from. You need to know a huge number of scales because as soon as you hit an outside chord in a tune, your scale needs to change to match it or you will sound awfull. I had a friend who chose the wrong scale for a tune and played the whole thing off key. He didn't notice because he was listening to his scale runs and ignoring what the underlying chords were telling him.
That is not to say that scale players can't play melodicly,but it is in spite of the scales not because of them. I used to love listening to scale runs in the blues,but after my ears opened up with P.T. I find them boring and they act like white noise to me. As soon as I hear a scale my ears turn off. Once you buy P.T. you can go to the P.T. forum and talk to some recovering scale players who will give you their take on it.

[Nem]

umm, i still dont really understand what ur saying because surely you understand that even chords come from scales....

you dont have chords without scales, and when i talk about play scales im not talking about spitting out notes at insane speeds in a linear fashion. you can play scales slowly, but like your example about your friend who played the song off key....you'd need to understand the chords ur playing over, as well as how your scale fits ontop of it to prevent that

[allthumbs]

Of course chords and scales are basicly the same notes, it is how you perceive them that influences your playing style. This can be a hot topic. I should add that that is just my opinion and if scales work for you then by all means go with what works. Scales never worked for me, I can see them all over the fretboard,but my fingers prefer to move with more freedom to just follow melody. Even when I am playing bits of scales,I am not thinking of them as scales.

[gravitas]

Ah, I see. And I agree with you, for the most part. I can see the value of scales as practice for the fingers. Sounding awful if you miss, yeah, that can be a problem too- though, there's a dude named Steve Piticco, mad flatpicker who was friends with my guitar teacher, who implements bends to avoid that kind of thing. But you have to have a really good ear for that, and it's still the same kind of up-and-down country stuff that you don't like.

The scale system is a bit flawed, and definitely slow going if you're approaching it in terms of patterns and numbers. But that's no reason to rope off an entire reach of the guitar, especially if it leads to helping you envision your fretboard.

I suppose that there is a sort of release in playing a million miles an hour, like you're blazing through the skids of the world. And it's fine; those are the selfish guitar players. The ones who play for their own releases than for our enjoyment. In some ways I envy them. But they're also the players that think with their hands and not with their heads.

The true artists hear their own melodies in the back of their heads, guys like Mozart, Sun Ra, Coltrane, Bruce Cockburn, Sting, Robbie Robertson, Lennon and Mccartney. If you think in terms of creating your own preconceived melody, knowing scales is only going to make it easier to translate them to music. Not knowing them seems to me more like a shot in the dark that might lead you to something other than what you were imagining.

I don't know, am I full of myself? Cause if I am, someone shoot me down, I'd greatly appreciate it.

[allthumbs]

I hear what your saying. I like Nelsonites definition of scales. A matrix of notes. Thinking of a scale as being embedded in a field of surrounding notes is a great way to think of them. The trick is to not ignore those surrounding notes. One of my first scale books was an analysis of blues riffs using the major and minor pentatonic scales. The book completely ignored all the other notes in the riffs of which there were many. The entire book failed to mention these other notes once. I had a course in how to play scales in every key all over the fretboard. Again,2 cds of lessons and not one mention of non scale notes. When the guy jammed, it was almost pure scales. You can see how easy it would be to fall into thinking scales are a straight line and stand alone.
I apologize for not being clearer about my thinking on scales. Scales are a fine tool as long as you can still see and easily add in non scale notes. At the highest level of playing scales and chords should blend into one seamless whole IMHO.

[gravitas]

Oh, I see. We were thinking essentially the same thing. Knowing scales good, limit bad. Ugga ugga undertand.

[allthumbs]

Of course the easiest way to avoid the inherent pitfalls in scales is to play through chords instead, unfortunately there is almost no material out there on how to do that. Luckily for us, Kirks' P.T. materials does include how to play through chords.
In your statement about scales making it easier to figure out melodies,I think you will find more success using chords instead. Most melodies are based on chord tones. For instance,B.B.King, The thrill is Gone, is all chord tones for the first 6 bars. SRVs' The Things I Used To Do can be played almost exclusivley by just picking the notes from the chords. Take a tune you have the tabs for that you know very well and sit down and relate the notes to the chords above each bar and you will see what I mean.

[gravitas]

This is a bit of a Gordian Knot, isn't it? Isn't any combination of notes a chord in some shape or form?

[allthumbs]

That is true. Maybe I should say that the melody is based around chord tones with non chord tones or scale notes added for flavour. You could just as easily turn that around and say that for scales though I think it would be harder to see. Most tunes are based on simple chords,but some jazz stuff can go nuts with chord extentions. Even they can be boiled down to basic chords with just an added note here or there.
When I focused on chords eventualy the scales became absorbed by the chords. I didn't see scales anymore as such. I saw note extentions of the chords. I think the same could be done with scales. Seeing the chords being absorbed by scales,but still being aware of them and utilizing their notes in your playing. I have heard players talk about the first happening, but rarely about the second. I don't really know why. It might be the idea of scales standing alone that prevents players from seeing how intwined they are with chords.

[justinthyme]

Originally Posted by allthumbs

Once you buy P.T. you can go to the P.T. forum and talk to some recovering scale players who will give you their take on it.

Never thought of myself as a 'recovering scale player' until now, AT - very apt terminology! Now, 'scuse me - I have to go work on Kirk's 12 step program ...

[gravitas]

Originally Posted by allthumbs

...I don't really know why. It might be the idea of scales standing alone that prevents players from seeing how intwined they are with chords.

Which brings us back to thinking with one's hands and not one's head. I think of scales as an interesting way of getting from one point another. I mean, they are melodic, but no melody are they. So the strict and hard-learned scales don't often appear in any of the songs I play or modify- but it depends on the feel you're going for. I've been reading Tony Iommi's old Guitar World columns, and he talks a lot about "light and shade" in music. I'm not sure which is which, but the gist of this theory is that you have to have equal parts sound/equal parts silence, and scales can really... tip the scales