[Doug]

I have no idea what I'm talking about, but that's never stopped me before...

I was thinking about the layout of the notes on the guitar and the fact that barre cords are moveable.

And kind of wondering why it's so easy to transpose keys on the guitar but so difficult on a piano. Then I came to the conclusion that a piano is laid out diatonically - the keys are laid out so that the tone tone semi-tone tone tone tone semi-tone is part of the key structure (white and black keys). Whereas on the guitar it's semi-tone semi-tone semi-tone... etc - chromatically.

It means that the guitar player has to learn the pattern of the different scales but doesn't have to learn a new pattern for each key.

The piano player can see the pattern of the scale laid out in black and white (at least for the key of C) but has to relearn the pattern for each key.

I saw an African xylophone the other day that was laid out chromatically - ie, no differentiation between black and white keys(maybe all xylophones are that way ) and I was wondering if it is easier to learn than a piano.

I wonder if anyone ever made a piano laid out chromatically rather than diatonically?

I wonder if anyone cares?

dum de dum...

[krissovo]

??????????

[si16]

Originally Posted by krissovo

??????????

It's perfectly simple Kriss, he laid it all out in black and white.

[Doug]

sorry, it was a slightly alcohol induced post...

[monk]

Doug,
The piano is chromatic. WBWBWWBWBWBWW(key color= 1/2 steps)

A pianist can play a C chord in consistantly every octave with the same fingering. If you play a C chord on guitar at the 1st, 3rd, 5th, 8th and 10th frets you have to use five different fingerings and your voicings won't be consistant. Even if you use only triads your fingerings will change.

If you want to finger an F barre and slide up to A at the fifth fret you can use the same shape, a pianist would have to change fingerings to do the same.

Each instrument has its trade offs. But both are chromatic.

Regards,
Monk

[monk]

Originally Posted by si16

It's perfectly simple Kriss, he laid it all out in black and white.

Groan....I suppose that was too hard to resist. Funny.

Later, Monk

[eddiez152]

Almost sounds like the difference between Key and button accordions.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by monk

Each instrument has its trade offs. But both are chromatic.

Good point, Monk, thanks.

Yes, both instruments are chromatic - all 12 notes are available for each octave.

But, it seems to me, the piano is laid out in the key of C and relegates the non-diatonic notes to the smaller offset black keys. Whereas a guitar (or African xylophone) makes no distinction about the key of the instrument nor the diatonic vs non-diatonic notes. Each note is spaced out in semi-tones.

I just found it interesting...

[Doug]

Also, I think that the point you make about the differnt fingerings and voicings of the chords played at different octaves on the guitar is more an artifact of the 6 strings giving an overlapped layered array of notes rather than the linear array of notes on a piano.

If the piano were laid out so that there was no difference between black and white keys - if the black keys were placed in between the white keys and were the same size, wouldn't it be easier to switch between keys? And I think the C chord would still have the same fingering regardless of the octave that it was being played in.

Of course, the keyboard would be wider. But wouldn't it be a more flexible instrument?

[monk]

Doug,
A piano keyboard is a straight line.

A string is a straight line.

A piano is a single straight line.

A guitar is six straight lines.

A piano has two "Simple Automatic Functions":
C Major Scale & Gb Pentatonic Scale.

A guitar also has two "SAF":
The inversions of an Augmented Triad & the inversions of a Diminished Seventh chord.

The six strings of the guitar are comparable to six piano keyboards each a fourth higher than the last except for second keyboard which is only offset by a third. And you can only play one note at a time on each keyboard.

There is one fingering for the C scale (or any other) on piano.
On guitar I can think of 6 fingerings for C major scale immediately not to mention Harmonic minor, Melodic minor, Diminished and Whole Tone scales plus the modes.

In spite of all that it's incredibly easy and fun to learn to play.


Regards,
Monk

[monk]

Originally Posted by Doug

Of course, the keyboard would be wider. But wouldn't it be a more flexible instrument?

Only if you had great big hands.

Regards,
Monk

[Fretsource]

It would be less flexible, Doug, not more.
Making every piano key the same size would be a huge handicap for players. Nobody would be able to play any interval greater than a fifth with one hand - and even that might be too much of a stretch.
Making them all the same colour would lose you the instantly recogniseable pattern of natural and sharp/flat notes. Many guitarists take years to learn the notes on a guitar - the note names on a piano can be learned by anyone - in minutes rather than years, thanks to that pattern.
And the advantage of the string/ fret array on guitars (and all fretted instruments) that allows you to work with moveable patterns, wouldn't transfer to the piano, even if you laid the notes as you said. There would only be the horizontal component, not the vertical, so it would be like one super long guitar string.

In case you're interested, the layout of the keyboard stems from a time when there were no sharps and flats in music theory. When they came along one by one, starting with Bb, they were 'cut in' between the appropriate naturals in such a way that they wouldn't change the distance between them. Doing otherwise would have made the instrument unplayable for those who had spent years learning the keyboard, only to find all the notes no longer where they used to be. Eventually, all sharps/flats were included except, of course, between B-C and E-F as they were already a semitone apart. The fact that this resulted in an instantly recogniseable visual pattern was a huge and unexpected bonus.

[monk]

Bravo Fretsource!

[Doug]

Thanks Fretsource. yes - there certainly is a pragmatic aspect to the key layout. My arrangemnet wouldn't be very playable - I can see that. And thanks for the info about the addition of the piano keys as different keys were explored.

[Doug]

Originally Posted by monk

Doug,
A piano keyboard is a straight line.

A string is a straight line.

A piano is a single straight line.

A guitar is six straight lines.

A piano has two "Simple Automatic Functions":
C Major Scale & Gb Pentatonic Scale.

A guitar also has two "SAF":
The inversions of an Augmented Triad & the inversions of a Diminished Seventh chord.

The six strings of the guitar are comparable to six piano keyboards each a fourth higher than the last except for second keyboard which is only offset by a third. And you can only play one note at a time on each keyboard.

There is one fingering for the C scale (or any other) on piano.
On guitar I can think of 6 fingerings for C major scale immediately not to mention Harmonic minor, Melodic minor, Diminished and Whole Tone scales plus the modes.

In spite of all that it's incredibly easy and fun to learn to play.


Regards,
Monk

Hey Monk, if I came across like I was arguing with you - I apologize - I'm just exploring some thoughts, that's all.

I guess the simple automatic function that I was thinking about for guitars was transposing keys.