[Dugal]

Hi everyone,

I am interested in soloing techniques - or rather I should say choosing appropriate notes to solo over chords. If tell everyone what I've learnt, would you mind correcting/adding to them and or sharing your own strategies.

I know following the melody sounds good.

I know that chord tones sound ok always.

I know scale tones sound ok most of the time. On this, I noted that Clapton sometimes uses the relative minor (vi) scale with flat sevens instead of the I scale. Has anyone noted other scales being used for soloing? I realise there is a similarity between vi and I scales.

I know chromatic notes can add certain tensions/feelings e.g. sharp fives for a "latin" feel, flat sevens for "bluesy" feel, flat threes for a sort of "lament/reflective" feel.

So what techniques do you all find work? Do you follow the chords around or move around in a scale (if so which?) or follow the melody? Any other techniques?

Thanks so much to anyone who replies. I find soloing curious and would love to know how fellow guitar players do it.

Dugal

[Kirk Lorange]

I'm a chord tone follower, Dugal. I discoverd long ago that good, strong melody is predominantly chord tones ... like 90%, and I love good strong melody. I tend to look for chord tones and connect them where the melody demands by other scale notes (non chord tones) or semitones.

Scales ..? To my ear, scales are just that: scales. I switch off when I start hearing scale runs. I find that it ceases to be music.

But that's just me. I know there are many many players out there who love hearing scales played at blistering speed ... in which case: learn all the scales and modes you can find.

[allthumbs]

I am with Kirk. Melody is king and chords are the queen. Sounds like you are ready for Kirks' Plane Talk materials. The fastest way I have ever found to develop your improv skills.

[feri52]

Hi Dugal,
Just to throw my two cents in-I have found trying to use scales for improv limits your creativity.
I can also heartily recommend Kirk's Planetalk method. I think chord tones is the way to go.
Frank

[jasoncohen]

AHH i wanna buy planetalk but im not the one with the credit card in the family and its not easy convincing my dad.

[allthumbs]

Originally Posted by jasoncohen

AHH i wanna buy planetalk but im not the one with the credit card in the family and its not easy convincing my dad.

Tell him that this one book replaces most how to books and chord dictionaries. It will save him a pile of money in the long run and he won't have to listen to you running scales any more. It costs the same as a couple of guitar lessons and provides a lifetime of instruction. Have him read the testimonials. Tell him there is a money back offer and if he doesn't hear your playing improve alot in 3 to 6 months of good work to send it back. If that fails, fall to the floor,kicking and swinging and hold your breath till your face turns blue. Ya gotta go with whats gonna work.

[feri52]

I hear you, Jason. I remember how hard it was to get any money out of my folks. They were pretty hard to convince- especially for something as "frivolous" as guitar playing. Boy, that sure was a looong time ago!
While you're saving up, however, you can probably get a lot of pointers in the mean time from this wonderful forum. (We didn't even have computers back then in the 60's). So as Kirk would say, cheers.
Frank

[Dugal]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts.

To clarify, when I wrote of using scales, I didn't mean going 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1, but rather noodling around in that scale, without particularly paying attention to the chords.

It seems that following melody and adding chord tones around it is the consensus method.

p.s. I have PT and it was definetly worth it.

I love to listen to BB King as he develops a solo. He starts out with just one or two notes from the melody of the verse- then gradually elaborates. The feel though is absolutely dictated by the melody he is playing with. In some senses this is a pretty basic approach and nowhere near as complex as some of the stuff the jazzers do - but it is a great starting point.
Get a copy of "The Thrill is Gone" and join in- you are bound to surprise yourself.

I think that the scales/versus chords controversy is overrated. I try to learn every chord as embedded in the scale I am playing ( ie play the A Major chord over the Amajor, DMajor and EMajor scales) and to always be aware of the scale degrees as well as the chord as a whole. Well OK this is a work in progress- but it is bearing fruit.

Andrew

[allthumbs]

Originally Posted by AndrewK

I love to listen to BB King as he develops a solo. He starts out with just one or two notes from the melody of the verse- then gradually elaborates. The feel though is absolutely dictated by the melody he is playing with. In some senses this is a pretty basic approach and nowhere near as complex as some of the stuff the jazzers do - but it is a great starting point.
Get a copy of "The Thrill is Gone" and join in- you are bound to surprise yourself.

I think that the scales/versus chords controversy is overrated. I try to learn every chord as embedded in the scale I am playing ( ie play the A Major chord over the Amajor, DMajor and EMajor scales) and to always be aware of the scale degrees as well as the chord as a whole. Well OK this is a work in progress- but it is bearing fruit.

Andrew

Sounds like you have it well in hand.

[Pete81t]

For me, I use both chord tones and scales when I solo. I guess this is because I started out learning scales from the very beginning, and I've practiced them for so long that I'm able to play them all over the fretboard. It's worked for me, so I've stuck to it, but I still want to learn Kirk's chord tone technique.

Now although I know strong melody is chord tones, I still think scales are important. After all, don't many of the greatest guitarists use scales in improvisation? To me, scales aren't about how fast you can play the notes all at once or playing runs of notes at impossible speeds. To me, scales are a template of which notes to use in creating melodic lines and phrases. Scales are based around chords and chord shapes, both two sides of the same coin.

I've heard it talked about as "in" and "out" tones. The notes of the basic triad are the furthest in, then the remaining notes of the scale- then finally the outside chromatic/passing tones.
One question I do have of the chordal approach is that any given note will appear in 3 different triads - so the issue of which chord to choose starts to get challenging-
ie for the key of C major and a melody line say of "F A C E" you could harmonise with - for example Fmaj7 all the way through or change from Fmaj to Cmaj or Fmaj to Em etc- so it is all very well playing "the chord tones" - but which chords?
This becomes especially relevant when you try to figure a tune out by ear-- the melody and solo are easy but the chords require more thought.

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by AndrewK

... so it is all very well playing "the chord tones" - but which chords?

There is only one chord to really worry about: The Chord of The Moment.

[Dugal]

My query with creating melodies from the chord of the moment is that not all notes from these chords will be in the key of the song. ie the melody will probably be out of key.

I guess this is already the case in blues (flat threes), but in the blues I've found that singers sing the flat threes of the one chord not the COTM.

So this is where my confusion lies for soloing with the COTM.

What I want to do is a big table of a key's chord notes and then see where the overlap is, so I can know which notes of non-I chords are part of the I chord scale.

[coldethyl]

Originally Posted by allthumbs

I am with Kirk. Melody is king and chords are the queen. Sounds like you are ready for Kirks' Plane Talk materials. The fastest way I have ever found to develop your improv skills.

Please forgive my dumb question if it sounds that way BUT:

Wouldn't improvising with chordal tones end up sounding just like arpeggios though?