[hb]

I am curios if I stumbled onto something or if it's just a coincedence, regarding sharps and flats on the key signature of music. I was trying to determine what key a piece of music was in. It has 4 sharps being C-D-F-and G.....all sharps. I looked at a chart and saw that this would make this written in the key of E. (I hope I'm right so far!). Then I was looking at Kirks chart of the 7 chords of the 12 major keys and went down the column that related to the key of E and I noticed that the ii, iii, vi, and vii CHORDS for that KEY are identical to the sharps on the key signature.....the C#,D#,F#, and G#. Is this always the case.......key signature revealing what the ii, iii, vi, and vii chords will be? I could probably spend an evening figuring all this out, but I know there's people out there that can help me with this!
thanks in advance,
hb

[Fretsource]

Only the key signature with four sharps will have a sharp sign that coincides with the roots of chords ii, iii, vi & vii

A key signature with more than 4 sharps will also have sharps that coincide with chord roots other than ii, iii, vi & vii
e.g., the key of B (with 5 sharps) will also have a sharp that coincides with the root of chord IV (F#)

B C# D# E (F#) G# A# B

A handy hint for 'seeing' what the key is from the key signature is:
Look at the last sharp - the key (assuming its a major key) will be one semitone or half step above that sharp.

For example, the key signature with THREE SHARPS has F#, C# and G#.
The last one (in the order they're printed) is G# - so the key must be A

This only works if it's a major key, not a minor.

[hb]

Ok...thanks, Fretsource. I was afraid that little revelation I had was not going to work!. I appreciate it.
hb

[carol m]

Nice trick there Fretsource. I always visualise the Circle of Fifths, and if I've forgotten how that goes, I resort to counting it out on fingers (1-5,1-5, etc). The advantage of that is that doing it every now and again, re-inforces the memory of the theory. Now I have 2 ways to check. Thanks.

[st_jo]

Carol,
"I resort to counting it out on fingers (1-5,1-5, etc)."
could you describe in more detail this method. i'm a bit unclear what you mean by 1-5.
is it simply: 1...2....3....4....5? and not 1....5.....1....5?
i'm having a brainfart.

[Noodler]

HB, I think what you are after is this. The major scale always goes:
Tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone.

Each note of the major scale in a key has a chord related to it that uses notes only from that key. eg in C

C major - C,E,G
E minor- D,F, A
E minor - E,G,B
F Major - F, A, C
G Major -G, B, D
A Minor - A, C, E
B Dim - B, D, F (notice all chords notes of these chords are from the C major scale).

Go up 1 Fifth from C to G. Just think of playing wild thing in different keys to know where the 5th is. To keep that spaces so that the major scale is still right in G (T-T-S-T-T-T-S), we need to raise the F to F#. That is what happens every time.

Go up from the G by a fifth to D, and once again that note just before the new key is raised by a semitone (ie C#). So we now have 2 sharps, F# and C sharp.

Repeat that twice more and you are at E. That is your circle of fifths.

The minor of any key has the same key signature as the major 4 frets up. There is no such thing as a minor key signature (AFAIK).
So Am is C, Em is G, Dm is F, etc.

Hope that helps. Signatures like Bb (Gm) can be worked out by going down in 4ths, but that's another story.

[hb]

[quote=Noodler;161149]HB, I think what you are after is this. The major scale always goes:
Tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitone.

Each note of the major scale in a key has a chord related to it that uses notes only from that key. eg in C

C major - C,E,G
E minor- D,F, A
E minor - E,G,B
F Major - F, A, C
G Major -G, B, D
A Minor - A, C, E
B Dim - B, D, F (notice all chords notes of these chords are from the C major scale).

I think I see what you're saying, but if I'm understanding you correctly, in every note of the scale having a chord that goes with it in that key.......In your C scale above, where is the D chord? The D is certainly one of the notes of the C scale. What am I missing? Perhaps it has something to do with the E major and E minor both being in there?
hb

[Noodler]

Just a typo, sorry! Should have read:

C major - C,E,G
D minor- D,F, A
E minor - E,G,B
F Major - F, A, C
G Major -G, B, D
A Minor - A, C, E
B Dim - B, D, F (notice all chords notes of these chords are from the C major scale).

It works whatever key your are in. Two frets up from the tonal chord (I) is a minor chord (IIm), up another two frets is another minor chord (IIIm), up one more fret is a major chord (IV), and up two frets from that is another chord (V), which is usually played as a 7th.

This isn't exhaustive by any means, but it is good to know as a tool for working out songs. Sorry about the typo.

[hb]

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I was starting to think that I was really confused!
hb

[MalcolmAmos]

I use several limericks (memory pegs) help yourself to any or all.

See God Destroy All Earth By F#irey C#aos
Fat Cats Go Down Alleys Eating Birds

Now that limerick lets me tick of the sharps this way.
C has no sharps or flats for that matter.
G has one
D has two
A has three
E has four
B has five
F# has six
C# has seven

C scale has no sharps
G scale has one the F# (Fat)
D scale has two - keeps the F# and adds the C# (Cat)
A scale has three - keeps the F#, C# and adds the G# (Go)
Keep going keeping the order (See God Destroy...) and keeping the sharps you already have and adding the ones from your other limerick (Fat Cats Go Down....)
For some reason this is easier for me.

Flats are in this order;
Farmer Brown East Apple Dumplings Greasley Cooked or......
F, Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, Gb, Cb
F scale has the Bb
Bb has itself and adds the Eb (look to the right for the next flat)
etc. etc.

Works for me.

[Fretsource]

I first learned the order of sharps by memorising the chords to Hey Joe - C G D A E.
Not complete, I know, but at least it covered the friendly keys, which were all I cared about at the time.

[Noodler]

And a good one for learning scale chords is "Like a Rolling Stone" by Hendrix/ Dylan or whoever wrote it.

In C: C, Dm, Em, F, G (verse), then F, G, F, G, F, Em, Dm, C.
Chorus: C, F, G, F.

Back to the OP, one thing you did get right is that as you go "up" around the circle of fifths, the 7th will be a sharp. It is the new sharp that you add to get the next key.

[LeeB]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

I first learned the order of sharps by memorising the chords to Hey Joe - C G D A E.
Not complete, I know, but at least it covered the friendly keys, which were all I cared about at the time.

Very cool.... these chords rearranged also spell CAGED .. not sure why I point this out other than an observation