[johnboggs]

I spent a week at National Guitar Workshop this summer taking a (for me) fairly advanced guitar theory class. One thing that became apparent to me was how poor my understanding of chords on the guitar neck is. The teacher would mention a minor 7 flat 5 chord and I'd be lost. So I spent some time thinking about this and came up with the following idea:

Learn the interval numbers based on the root, at the same fret as the root. Learn all five possible versions of this; one for each string on which the root would reside (remembering that the first and sixth string versions would be the same).

So, without handling the guitar, I memorized the following interval sequences (figuring them out in my head made them sink in faster):

Root on 6 or 1: R, 4, b7, b3, 5, and R

Root on 5: 5, R, 4, b7, 2, and 5

Root on 4: 2, 5, R, 4, 6, and 2

Root on 3: 6, 2, 5, R, 3, and 6

Root on 2: 4, b7, b3, #5, R and 4

Now, if I want to construct any chord, I pick a string for the root and build the chord by fingering the appropriate strings at a fret at, above, or below my root-fret to hit the notes for my chord.

Remember that the 2, 4, and 6 scale degrees double as 9, 11, and 13 when there is a 7 present.

I found this to be a real eye-opener and spent time analyzing many of the chords I know to see how they relate. Given a few seconds, I can now build pretty much any chord I want although some of the fingerings will drive me to a different root string.

I recommend figuring out the intervals yourself based on the 4th and 3rd string relationships of standard tuning rather than memorizing my list above. I think your understanding will be improved.

I hope this helps some of you as much as it has helped me.

Regards to all.

[eddiez152]

John,
Cool, something to think about, thanks for posting this.

[Live Stone]

Good theory lesson.

Danny

[wcostley]

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by johnboggs

I spent a week at National Guitar Workshop this summer taking a (for me) fairly advanced guitar theory class. One thing that became apparent to me was how poor my understanding of chords on the guitar neck is. The teacher would mention a minor 7 flat 5 chord and I'd be lost. So I spent some time thinking about this and came up with the following idea:

Learn the interval numbers based on the root, at the same fret as the root. Learn all five possible versions of this; one for each string on which the root would reside (remembering that the first and sixth string versions would be the same).

So, without handling the guitar, I memorized the following interval sequences (figuring them out in my head made them sink in faster):

Root on 6 or 1: R, 4, b7, b3, 5, and R

Root on 5: 5, R, 4, b7, 2, and 5

Root on 4: 2, 5, R, 4, 6, and 2

Root on 3: 6, 2, 5, R, 3, and 6

Root on 2: 4, b7, b3, #5, R and 4

Now, if I want to construct any chord, I pick a string for the root and build the chord by fingering the appropriate strings at a fret at, above, or below my root-fret to hit the notes for my chord.

Remember that the 2, 4, and 6 scale degrees double as 9, 11, and 13 when there is a 7 present.

I found this to be a real eye-opener and spent time analyzing many of the chords I know to see how they relate. Given a few seconds, I can now build pretty much any chord I want although some of the fingerings will drive me to a different root string.

I recommend figuring out the intervals yourself based on the 4th and 3rd string relationships of standard tuning rather than memorizing my list above. I think your understanding will be improved.

I hope this helps some of you as much as it has helped me.

Regards to all.

John--

Could you expand on this?? I'm not seeing what you're seeing. 'Course, my brain can be pretty thick.

So let's say you want to construct a D major chord using the root on the fourth string. With this system, I would have to know the make up of the basic chord and formation anyway, right? Are you saying I could construct the chord from scratch knowing this? So, if I wanted to find the 1, major 3rd and 5 forming a D chord using the root on the fourth string, I could just stop whenever I think I've constructed any collection of notes, and I call that some form of a D chord?

Thanks for helping out the brain of an old man.

Steve

[Doug]

Hi John,
I'd really recommend Kirk's book - Planetalk. It'll open up a lot more understanding of the guitar neck.

[6string]

Originally Posted by Doug

Hi John,
I'd really recommend Kirk's book - Planetalk. It'll open up a lot more understanding of the guitar neck.

I 2nd that, the initial post made my head spin

[Aunt Doty]

Originally Posted by wcostley

Me too!!!

[doug russell]

Thanks for that JB, I,m a bit guilty of lack of knowing the working theory of the fretboard.

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

John--

Could you expand on this?? I'm not seeing what you're seeing. 'Course, my brain can be pretty thick.

Steve,

I think what he's showing is the relationship of notes across the strings at any given fret. For example, if your root note (I) is on the second string, the note on the sixth string will be a IV, the note on the 5th string will be a b7, etc. From there you could figure out that if you need a 7, you could find it one fret down on the 5th string.....if you need a 5, it would be 2 frets up on the sixth (or first) string, etc. At least that's what I'm getting out of it.

[johnboggs]

Steve,

Stratrat's got it right but I'll expand:

If you want to create a Dmaj chord with the root on the fourth string, you first find a D on the fourth string. In this case that happens to be the open fourth string. The sequence for the root on the fourth string is:

strng - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
intrvl - 2 - 5 - R - 4 - 6 - 2

Since you can't go DOWN the neck below the nut, let's move the fourth string D to the 12th fret. You can now fret the 3rd string (a 4 at the 12th fret) at the 11th fret and have the 3 of the D chord. You can then fret the 2d string (a 6 at the 12th fret) at the 10th fret and have the 5 of the D chord. Then you can fret the 1st string (a 2 at the 12th fret) at the 10th fret and have a repeat of the root of the D chord. If you then fret the 5th string at the 12th fret and fret the 6th string at the 10th fret (like the 1st string - you can barre across the neck to get both), the result is the CAGED E form barre chord D.

So the sequence of notes fretted in this manner will be:

strng - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
intrvl - R - 5 - R - 3 - 5 - R

If you want to play the D at the nut, you'd have to fret the 3rd string 4 two frets higher to make it a 5, fret the 2d string 6 three frets higher to make it a root, and fret the 1st string 2 two frets higher to make it a 3. This will give you the CAGED D form of the D chord.

Does that make it any clearer?

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by johnboggs

Steve,

Stratrat's got it right but I'll expand:

If you want to create a Dmaj chord with the root on the fourth string, you first find a D on the fourth string. In this case that happens to be the open fourth string. The sequence for the root on the fourth string is:

strng - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
intrvl - 2 - 5 - R - 4 - 6 - 2

Since you can't go DOWN the neck below the nut, let's move the fourth string D to the 12th fret. You can now fret the 3rd string (a 4 at the 12th fret) at the 11th fret and have the 3 of the D chord. You can then fret the 2d string (a 6 at the 12th fret) at the 10th fret and have the 5 of the D chord. Then you can fret the 1st string (a 2 at the 12th fret) at the 10th fret and have a repeat of the root of the D chord. If you then fret the 5th string at the 12th fret and fret the 6th string at the 10th fret (like the 1st string - you can barre across the neck to get both), the result is the CAGED E form barre chord D.

So the sequence of notes fretted in this manner will be:

strng - 6 - 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1
intrvl - R - 5 - R - 3 - 5 - R

If you want to play the D at the nut, you'd have to fret the 3rd string 4 two frets higher to make it a 5, fret the 2d string 6 three frets higher to make it a root, and fret the 1st string 2 two frets higher to make it a 3. This will give you the CAGED D form of the D chord.

Does that make it any clearer?

I get that. I get that it's a relationship of notes across the strings at any given fret. It's just that I don't see the value in it when it's much easier to see the CAGED layout with the 5 chord formations and then find the notes you want from within the chord. It's not that I'm dissin' this method, it's just that I'm not seeing the value. Tell me more....

Steve

[johnboggs]

Well, for ME, the problem is not in finding major or minor or dom7 chords around the neck. The CAGED method works just fine for that. My problem is in finding altered chords in various three- and four-string voicings in places on the neck convenient (in a fingering sense) to other chords I'm playing.

I look at, say, the rhythm parts for swing blues or gypsy jazz, where most of the rhythm chords are three- or four-string voicings on the bass strings and I can't SEE the CAGED relationships of those voicings.

Or I'm looking for a ii - V - I transition to spice up a twelve-bar blues and I want to use alterations of the 9th or 11th degrees of those chords AND I want them to be voiced so they move easily into my destination chord.

Those kinds of scenarios are where this method works for me.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by johnboggs

Well, for ME, the problem is not in finding major or minor or dom7 chords around the neck. The CAGED method works just fine for that. My problem is in finding altered chords in various three- and four-string voicings in places on the neck convenient (in a fingering sense) to other chords I'm playing.

I look at, say, the rhythm parts for swing blues or gypsy jazz, where most of the rhythm chords are three- or four-string voicings on the bass strings and I can't SEE the CAGED relationships of those voicings.

Or I'm looking for a ii - V - I transition to spice up a twelve-bar blues and I want to use alterations of the 9th or 11th degrees of those chords AND I want them to be voiced so they move easily into my destination chord.

Those kinds of scenarios are where this method works for me.

I see...this is an advanced method--for 'beyonds', most likely. Thanks for sharing it.

I suppose that since I haven't put as much thought into this as you and others have, I still say that you can get to the same advanced voicings by using CAGED. It's just that in order to see the voicings you have to look at CAGED and extend it and be familiar with the notes (relative intervals) within the three and four frets of the chord formation, or the surrounding frets of the chord. I suppose until I give it more thought that for ME, your method is unwieldy.

I guess it depends on how each of our lightbulbs turn on. For me, it is CAGED and the scale forms (intervals) that encompass each chord formation and how they are connected to one another throughout the neck. This is my anchor rather than fret position, normally.

Steve

[Doug]

So are you saying that, while playing, you can refer to your memorized knowledge of the intervals across the fretboard and create a chord that fits the moment?

I certainly couldn't even if I spent the time required to memorize the intervals across the fretboard - no small feat. It would always take me a bit of time to drag out the intervals from my memory and then say, ok, we want to go down a fret here and up a fret here to create this chord I'm looking for.

For me, I think it would be much better to learn the patterns involved - as in the CAGED system - but to also know where the 1 3 5 and 7s are within that system. You want a minor - shift the 3 down. You want a major 7th, shift the seven up, etc. I find patterns a lot easier to remember.
But if it works for you, that's great. Thanks for sharing - interesting discussion.