[justinthyme]

I'm working on transcription/aural training etc and using Santana's 'Evil Ways' have got this far:

The main body of the song (ignoring the rest for now) goes back and forth between Gm and Bb and the song resolves to Gm. So, Im thinking the theoretical scale is F and the chords built from that scale are:

F Gm Am Bb C Dm Edim.

But - as the tonal center seems to be Gm I figure the song is actually in G dorian.

Now the question is this - could the song correctly be called a:

ii-IV progression in F, or a

i - III in Gm, or a

i - III in G dorian?

I'm thinking the most correct answer must be the third one, but I need to know if my logic is correct on this and that the way I've notated the chords is correct - assuming that the possible progressions of the G dorian scale would be:

Gm---Am---Bb---C---Dm---Edim----F
-i-----ii----III---IV---v----vi dim--VII

or am I just getting myself horribly confused??

I'm just working on the body of the song, btw - I know there are other chords in there, but for now I'm just thinking about the first 2.

Thanks!

[Fretsource]

If the tonal centre is G, then the key must be G something. Given just those two chords Gm and Bb - then it must be in the key of G minor.
You could only say its G Dorian if the song contains the note E but doesn't contain Eb. Is that the case?

If so then, technically, it's G Dorian - but the Dorian mode is one of the minor modes - so most people, including the sheet music publisher, will correctly say it's in the KEY of G minor and the key signature will show that it's in G minor with 2 flats (Eb and Bb). Every occurence of E natural will be shown within the music by adding the natural sign in front of every E, which is what tells us the song's mode is Dorian.

When talking about keys, major and minor are the two terms used. It's only when talking about modes that it's appropriate to call it G Dorian.
Lots of songs are modal but it doesn't affect how we call the KEY.
The Beatles' Norwegian Wood, for example is in the key of D major but its mode is actually Mixolydian (which is one of the major modes).
For most people, that's irrelevant, and rightly so.

[justinthyme]

Thanks, Fret - crystal clear as always

Yep - no Eb. The notes that fit over the song are:
G A Bb C D E F (b3 and b7 cf G major) - making it G Dorian.

So - the song would be correctly described as a i - III in Gm then? Did I get the roman numerals right? And the term Dorian would be used to further classify it?

On the subject of minors - would the harmonic, melodic, and natural minor keys all be shown as having the same key signature, but once again have the sharps and flats sorted out in the body of the music?

Cheers.

Ian

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by justinthyme

So - the song would be correctly described as a i - III in Gm then? Did I get the roman numerals right? And the term Dorian would be used to further classify it?

Couldn't have put it better myself

On the subject of minors - would the harmonic, melodic, and natural minor keys all be shown as having the same key signature, but once again have the sharps and flats sorted out in the body of the music?

Remember, there's only one type of minor key just as there's only one type of major key (built on any note).
Those three (natural, harmonic and melodic) are minor scales. That means when anyone writes a song in a minor key, they will use any or all notes of those three scales they choose. So, a song in G minor might contain E AND/OR Eb plus F AND/OR F#.

So, Yes again. The key signature always corresponds with the notes of the natural minor scale and the different notes of the other two scales are always shown within the music by sharps, flats and naturals, wherever required.

[justinthyme]

Ok, got it! You'd think by this stage I would have got the difference between scales and keys sorted out!

Thanks again ...

[Outside the Octaves]

Well, in a manner of speaking, scales are keys . Only, there are certain scales that are variations of a given key .

I hope I'm not being confusing here, and I do hope I haven't confused myself .