[hb]

I'm trying to grasp the circle of fifths and it's relationship to friendly chords but I can't seem to grasp one thing.....How can one chord (or should I say "scale") like the the 'C' , have exactly the same notes as the 'A minor"? I know a C scale starts on a C and an A scale starts on the A but in between they're the same. How can this be?
thanks,
hb

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by hb

I'm trying to grasp the circle of fifths and it's relationship to friendly chords but I can't seem to grasp one thing.....How can one chord (or should I say "scale") like the the 'C' , have exactly the same notes as the 'A minor"? I know a C scale starts on a C and an A scale starts on the A but in between they're the same. How can this be?
thanks,
hb

It's a coincidence (kind of)
C major is C D E F G A B C
A minor is A B C D E F G A

All major scales have an order of Tones and Semitones (whole steps and half steps) as TTSTTTS

All natural minor scales have the order TSTTSTT

And it just so happens that if you start the major one on C and the minor one on A, they come out with the same notes. But they sound very different because of the different order of tones and semitones. One sounds bright and majorish, the other sounds darker and minorish. The fact that they have the same notes gives them the name relative major and relative minor of each other.

Edit: It's not really a coincidence as all diatonic scales originally came from the same seven notes ABCDEFG and there are only so many ways you can arrange them, so of course many will have the same notes but start on different places.

[hb]

Thanks!! Makes sense..........well, kinda!
hb

[Alrightmax]

Also, "A B C D E F G A" is natural minor, and (arguably) less frequently used than, say, harmonic minor "A B C D E F G# A".

[Kirk Lorange]

You need to imagine scales as being a circle, hb, not a line ... makes it much easier to understand. The little scale clock below teaches all kinds of things about scales. Just remember to end on the same note as you start on, and understand that it's an octave above the original:



Starting at C, as per the arrow, you have the major scale: TTsTTTs ... the Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do scale.
Starting at D, the Dorian mode ... TsTTTsT
Starting at E, the Phrygian mode ... sTTTsTT
Starting at F, the Lydian mode ... T T TsTTs
Starting at G, the Mixolydian mode .... TTsTTsT
Starting at A, the Aeolian mode ... TsTTsTT
Starting at B, the Locrian mode ... sTTsTTT

So all those modes, including the one you're asking about, the Aeolian, are just the same set of intervals-in-a-circle, using different starting notes.

The Am scale and C scale aren't the same in between.

If you were to start on C#, not C, all those intervals would shift by one 'hour'. It would certainly look more complicated with all the sharp signs, but it would be the exactly the same relationships. Each 'hour' is one of the 12 notes, and this simple little template just shifts around for each one.

Thinking chords, now: Grab any of those lettered notes (call it 1), skip a note(2), grab the next(3), skip another(4), grab the next(5). That's a chord: 1-3-5

Starting at C: C E G > C major (look at the distance from C to E. 4 'hours' ... major third, makes a major chord)
Starting at D: D F A > D minor (see how the interval between the 1 and 3 is smaller? Minor chord.)
Starting at E: E G B > Em (again, the 1 to 3 distance is a minor third, 'three hours.')
Starting at F: F A C > F major (back to a major third between 1 and 3)
Starting at G: G B D > G major (another major third interval between 1 and 3)
Starting at A: A C E > A minor (back to the '3 hour third', makes it minor)
Starting at B: B D F > B half dim (here the intervals between 1>3 and 3>5 are both minor thirds. Makes it half diminished, the odd one out, the fly in the ointment.)

Does that make it clearer?

[busaclub]

Thats cool never thought of it that way !

[hb]

Thanks Kirk...I'm starting to see what you mean. My confusion started on all this when once, and I think it was on this site, we were talking about the number of sharps and flats, or lack thereof on a piece of music determines what key the song is in and someone said that the key of A minor did not have any sharps or flats, and I thought to myself, how can that be, as music without any sharps or flats belongs to the key of C. I see now that the keys can sometimes share the same number of sharps and flats. Correct?????
In regards to the different modes you listed....should one ever need to memorize this or should I just remember that it's always a semitone between the III and IV and the VII and I. I have a sheet with the modes you listed that I practice, but I just do it to help me remember where notes like G# or Ab are on the fretboard. It's more of a note memory to me rather than a scale thing.
Thanks, hb

[knight46]

Fretsource and Kirk,
Thanks to both of you for this explaination. That is one of the great things about this site, you get the same information from different points, not of view but of understanding and it really helps to bring some of the theory into focus.
Thanks.

[solidwalnut]

Just for a summary point of view and my take, what Kirk and Fretsource and Alrightmax have said is:

The key of C has no sharps or flats (the 'base' key in understanding all the rest)

The key of A minor is a 'natural' minor scale. What that is saying is that the key of A minor is the relative minor key to the key of C major. Also, note that any relative minor of any major key will always be this Aeolian mode of the 'key of the moment' (the sixth position of the major scale while playing the same intervals as the major scale, only beginning in the sixth position).

Here's a lesson I recently finished on the topic, An Intro to Modes

[knight46]

Thanks Steve, great lesson. I have printed this thread and the lesson for reference.

[AX7221]

The pattern of tones and semitones may look arbitrary, and to me i guess they do. The way i look at it is somehow (the greeks i believe) figured out a way (circle of 5ths i assume) to sort've "optimize" the seven note scale. for example for 6 out of the 7 notes of the scale you can play either a major or a minor chord without playing a note out of key, which is a very elementary and good sounding chord. So by picking this pattern for the diatonic scales the scales become very useful, and i think that's why they're so popular. (that's a question i used to think about (where did this pattern come from?) so i figured i throw my answer out there in case anyone was wondering the same thing - or if im mistake please correct me)

[hb]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

Just for a summary point of view and my take, what Kirk and Fretsource and Alrightmax have said is:

The key of C has no sharps or flats (the 'base' key in understanding all the rest)

The key of A minor is a 'natural' minor scale. What that is saying is that the key of A minor is the relative minor key to the key of C major. Also, note that any relative minor of any major key will always be this Aeolian mode of the 'key of the moment' (the sixth position of the major scale while playing the same intervals as the major scale, only beginning in the sixth position).

Here's a lesson I recently finished on the topic, An Intro to Modes

I studied that link and I'm not sure if I'm absorbing this right or not. Please advise.....If I play the G major scale, I will start on G and play the whole notes up the scale with the exception of F#. Then if I play the same scale but instead of starting on G, I start on another note of the G scale, what I have done is change "modes" but still playing the same scale including that one F#. Is this correct?
thanks,
hb

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by AX7221

The pattern of tones and semitones may look arbitrary, and to me i guess they do. The way i look at it is somehow (the greeks i believe) figured out a way (circle of 5ths i assume) to sort've "optimize" the seven note scale. for example for 6 out of the 7 notes of the scale you can play either a major or a minor chord without playing a note out of key, which is a very elementary and good sounding chord. So by picking this pattern for the diatonic scales the scales become very useful, and i think that's why they're so popular. (that's a question i used to think about (where did this pattern come from?) so i figured i throw my answer out there in case anyone was wondering the same thing - or if im mistake please correct me)

You're right AX - It was them Greeks. They had a four string "lyre" called a tetrachord (meaning 4 strings) and one of the ways they tuned it was by spacing the notes as TONE TONE SEMITONE.
That mini scale became known as the DIATONIC TETRACHORD.
Later they expanded it to 8 notes by adding another tetrachord on top so you had T T S + T T S. As the two tetrachords were separated by a tone, they combined to give TTS (T) TTS - and that became the diatonic scale.

[AX7221]

From my understanding... no. When you modulate you dont change any of the notes of you scale you just use them in a different way. Like C Major contains no sharps or flats, and A Minor too contains no sharps or flats which means you can modulate b/w the two. A major scale and a minor scale have different sounds, and a lot of times they contain different notes so that may be where a lot of people think the difference is, but here you have a major scale and a minor scale that contain all the same notes... So in a sense it's the way that your ear hear it. What i'm doing if i modulate i'm changing the root. So if i do it right when someone listens to me modulate from C Ionian to A Aeolian after i modulate the A will stick out in their memory and that will become the reference point that the rest of the notes will measure up to. So you have different intervals and different sounds. On a side note if im playing a solo i probably modulate all the time whether i realize it or not, because of my skill level it just happens based on how im playing and i dont even know it.

[Fretsource]

Careful Ax. What you're describing is changing chord root, not modulating. Modulating means changing key, i.e., to a new tonal centre and usually a new set of notes, not just a new chord root in the same key.