[ethic]

I'm just wondering, what makes a song in the key of G rather
than the key of E minor? I mean, they're the same notes and
everything (right?), but *why* is it considered to be in G?

I'm not understanding this whole Relative Minor thing...

[Kirk Lorange]

Hi, ethic. Good question. There have been a couple of lessons here that I did where it was difficult to say for sure whether it was the major key or the relative minor key. Not being an expert in music theory, I'll wait for James to give the definitive answer, but off hand I'd say that if the song keeps coming back to the major chord, that it's centered around the major, then it's major; if it keeps returning to the minor chord, then it's in the minor key.

James?

[Neilsonite]

Hi, yeah I think Kirk's explanation is a good one - it's basically about chord progressions.

IMHO the distinction was clearer in classical music than in modern music, but (without going into stuff about cadences) if the chord progression resolves to G major, then that's the key; if it resolves to Em, then that's the key. It's more or less about which chord feels like home base - which chord you would want to end the chord song on.

In order to make minor keys feel more resolved, composers often change the v chord (Bm in the key of Em) to a V7 chord (B7 in the key of Em). You may have come across this before (e.g. E7-Am in House of the Rising Sun), and if you're interested, I can go into more detail about why it works...

James

[si16]

Originally Posted by Neilsonite

.....if you're interested, I can go into more detail about why it works...

James

Please. Could you, or anyone else, also give more details about related chords in a minor key. Kirk has mentioned it several times but says the rules aren't as structured those for a major key.

[guitarstrummin63]

in the relative minor key of say... g major the I chord will be Em

and the chords (or the way the progression will be) is almost backwards compared to the major key (just watch the diminished chord), which gives the minor key it's minor sound


i'm not an expert in music theory, so i can only give so much an explination of this

[Neilsonite]

I'm not really sure what John is saying about the diminished chord giving the minor key its minor sound or the progression being backwards compared to the major key, but I'm happy to explain a bit more about why minor keys are so variable...

I don't want to confuse you or anyone else reading, so this is strictly for those who are interested, and for those who are already familiar with scales, intervals, and chords. It is as useful for musicians as art history is to artists...

Basically the reason is that there are lots of different minor scales...

As you know, the relationship between the major scale and the relative minor scale is simple: they are the same, and produce the same chords. But, the numbering of the chords is changed because the root is different. For example:

C major:
I - Cmaj7
ii - Dm7
iii - Em7
IV - Fmaj7
V - G7
vi - Am7
vii - Bm7b5

Note that the interval structure of the scale is 1-2-3-4-5-6-7. Also note that the V chord is a 7th chord, which resolves really well to the I chord.

A minor, aka the Natural Minor scale:
i - Am7
ii - Bm7b5
bIII - Cmaj7
iv - Dm7
v - Em7
bVI - Fmaj7
bVII - G7

Note that the interval structure of the scale is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-b7. Note also that the v chord is a m7 chord, which doesn't resolve nearly as well to the i chord as a 7th chord does.

So, what people did is turn that Em7 into an E7 by raising the G to a G# (compare the two chords on the guitar, it's the easiest way to see it). This gives us a new scale: A-B-C-D-E-F-G#. Its formula is 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-7, and is called the Harmonic Minor scale. It produces the following chords:

A harmonic minor:
i - Am(maj7)
ii - Bdim7
bIII - Cmaj7#5
iv - Dm7
V - E7
bVI - Fmaj7
vii - G#dim7

As you can see, you start getting some pretty odd chords, so this scale is most often combined with the straighter sound of the natural minor scale to avoid the augmented and diminished chords... Also, it has the tone-and-a-half distance between the F and G# (i.e. the b6 and 7) which is an awkward melodic jump. So, people created the Melodic Minor scale with a 6 instead of a b6 to allow more flowing melodies, with the strong resolution allowed by having the 7 (G#) instead of the b7 (G) in the natural minor scale.... Originally it was different when played ascending and descending (descending it was just the natural minor), but the ascending version is used in jazz, and it's 1-2-b3-4-5-6-7...

A melodic minor:
i - Am(maj7)
ii - Bm7
bIII - Cmaj7#5
IV - D7
V - E7
vi - F#m7b5
vii - G#m7b5

Again, it has strange chords, so it is often combined with the natural and harmonic minor scales.

But, there are still more minor scales. The most important ones are some of the modes of the major scale: the Dorian and the Phrygian (the natural minor is the third minor mode, known as the Aeolian). Here they are harmonized:

A dorian, which has the formula 1-2-b3-4-5-6-b7
i - Am7
ii - Bm7
bIII - Cmaj7
IV - D7
v - Em7
vi - F#m7b5
bVII - Gmaj7

This is common in jazz, funk, and bluesy minor progressions.

A Phrygian, which has the formula 1-b2-b3-4-5-b6-b7
i - Am7
bII - Bmaj7
bIII - C7
iv - Dm7
v - Em7b5
bVI - Fmaj7
bvii - Gm7

This is common in darker music, as well as jazz.

All of these scales and modes can be thought of as producing minor tonalities (although modes don't strictly produce keys, but it's the same idea), and are often combined and interchanged within songs to produce specific moods.

That may be more info than you were after, but at least it shows why there aren't hard and fast rules regarding minor chord progressions...

James

P.S. That was a lot of typing, so if there are typos, let me know...

[Jean]

Take a rest James

Edit: I really did not mean to sound rude, sorry James.

[Neilsonite]

Yeah, some curious people wanted to know, and unfortunately there isn't a short answer!
By the way, I should have mentioned that writing some chord progressions using those different minor tonalities is a great way to try out some new sounds...
James

[Kirk Lorange]

Thanks for all that James ... I never took the time to work out all the various permutations of harmonized minor scales. Very enlightening.

For all of you who have noticed that I decline to post the Roman numeral values of the chord progressions of minor key lessons ... this is why. There are so many possibilities that it's more confusing than helpful, unlike major keys which can all be compared to the I ii iii IV V vi vii. ( see this lesson )

[si16]

Thanks, James, for taking the time to go into such detail. While I knew it was going to be more complicated, there was still quite a bit more detail than I expected. However, I've looked at it now a few times and found that comparing the minor key with it's major counterpart has proved helpful but I will still need to go over it a bit more to get a better handle on things. However, it's been interesting to see some of the different tonalities and progressions which can be formed which was the reason I asked for the information.

[Neilsonite]

Hi again, no worries si16, hope you come up with some cool songs based on those tonalities. Here's an idea based on combining the Dorian and Aeolian (natural minor) modes:

Am D Em G
Am F Em G

Notice that the D suggests A Dorian which has a cool and smooth kind of sound, but the F suggests A Aeolian (natural minor), which has a darker sadder kind of sound.

And no worries Jean, no offense taken.

James

[RockaBilly]

Say James, that's pretty good but I think you're going over the heads of the beginners so I'll give the formula on how to construct chords out of the scale(s). We'll do it with the C major scale so we won't have to look at sharps nor flats. From then on I think the beginners will understand it better. Actually it's really easy.

The C major scale

C D E F G A B C

There we got 7 notes in the scale but we also got 7 chords but we need to harmonize the scale to make the chords. The chords are:

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim ( I ii iii IV V vi vii- )

We're going to build chords with triads which are 3 notes and to do that you just stack the 3rds.

C E G = C major

D F A = D minor

E G B = E minor

F A C = F major

G B D = G major

A C E = A minor

B D F = B diminished

All chords are based on triads as basic and if you want a 7th chord you stack another 3rd like

G B D F = G7.

Want a 9th? You guessed it. Now we only have so many fingers so we're going to have to omit a note or two. Usually it's the 5th that's omitted even the root too.

Now the natural (relative) minor scale is the 6th degree (vi) of the major scale or Aeolian mode. You still stack the 3rds to make chords out of them. The modes of the C major scale are:

C Ionian ( C D E F G A B C )

D Dorian ( D E F G A B C D )

E Phrygian ( E F G A B C D E )

F Lydian ( F G A B C D E F )

G Mixolydian ( G A B C D E F G )

A Aeolian ( A B C D E F G A )

B Locrian ( B C D E F G A B )

Now stack the 3rds of the modes and you have 49 triads total for the C major scale. More when you start adding more 3rds for the 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th chords.

There's still more chords when you start altering the scale(s). Yikes!

[Neilsonite]

Thanks for that, Rockabilly!

Yeah, as I said in my post, that stuff is not for beginners, and I was assuming that the reader already understood intervals and scales and harmonizing and so on.

There were just a couple of points I had about your post...

- I think you made a couple of typos regarding G... In the list of triads in C major, you've accidentally listed G B D as G minor, which should of course be G major. Also, in discussing 7th chords, G B D F is G7, not Gmaj7, which would be G B D F#

- I'm not sure what you mean by there being 49 triads for the C major scale - by my count there are only 7... As you pointed out, triads are three-note chords built by stacking thirds, which means that there is a unique triad for each note in the scale. Given that the modes by definition contain the same notes as the parent major scale (and thus the same triads), I'm not sure what you're getting at... maybe that the function of each triad within each mode is unique (i.e. that Dm for example functions differently in each mode)? Anyway, I'm interested to find out your perspective.

Thanks again,
James

[RockaBilly]

Whoops! That was a typo, G major it is. I said 49 because there's 7 triads x 7 modes. Each mode has its own tonic even though they have the same key so they have their own triads but I could be wrong. All this is from memory so I expect to make mistakes. I appreciate your input and I hoped that this basic info will help the beginners grasp the chord constructions. You know, take the mystery out of it.

Looks like I still mix up my minor 7s and major 7s. Since I'm so familiar with my fretboard I'm not thinking much about theory anymore.

[Neilsonite]

Hi again RockaBilly, thanks for the reply!

I think I understand what you mean, but I would have to respectfully disagree that each mode has its own triads, which gives 49 triads in each key... The modes of C major all use the 7 triads from the C major scale: C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim. For example, D Dorian just has Dm, Em, F, G, Am, Bdim, C - the exact same triads. Now I agree that if D is the tonic, then those 7 triads have different functions, but they really are the exact same triads...

And to clarify on the 7th chords... The three most common types of 7th chords are:
- major 7 (e.g. Cmaj7, or C-E-G-B)
- dominant 7 (e.g. C7, or C-E-G-Bb)
- minor 7 (e.g. Cm7, or C-Eb-G-Bb)

I think the confusion comes from the dominant 7th chord, as it is just called a '7' for short (e.g. C7). But this chord is different from the major 7th chord (e.g. Cmaj7), and it's easy to get them mixed up.

James