[Alawiggle]

I recently purchased a book called "Play Classical Guitar" by David Braid. I saw a lot of good reviews for it, so I'd figure I'd get it to really get me into the type of guitar I like...acoustic, classical, fingerpicking, etc. Anyway, no tab so you have to "read" the notation. My question is, how do you know when you're reading music and not just memorizing?

I tend to think I am reading it since if I take away the sheet music as a guide, then I don't know what I'm playing or what note comes next, but at the same time I still get a feeling the notation is just kick starting my memory. Any ideas?

[carol m]

I would say you are reading music if you can't play it without it. Maybe it's the memory of what the notes on the page mean that is being triggered, not the notes on the guitar, and that's exactly what you have to remember/know for reading music.

[Fretsource]

You start off by purely reading but each time you play the same exercise you memorise it little by little until, if you play it often enough, you'll have memorised it completely. That's usually what you want to do anyway. If it's an actual piece of music that you want to play well, you should memorise it for best results. That's why classical guitarists play concerts without reading from music. (On the rare occasion that they do, it's usually a sign that they haven't memorised the piece well enough in time for the concert.)
If you're playing exercises for the purposes of improving your sight reading ability then you should avoid memorising by constantly playing fresh material. As soon as it's even partly memorised you're no longer reading it and that particular exercise will have outlived its usefulness as a sight reading exercise.

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by Alawiggle

but at the same time I still get a feeling the notation is just kick starting my memory.

Isn't that pretty much what you want notation for anyway?

I can 'read' standard notation in as much as I know what all the notes and signs mean. But I can't read it at playing speed straight off the page, first time through. I have to work through it slowly, looking at all the marks and working out what information they are all passing on to me. Then the more I play the piece, the quicker I am at 'reading it'. But the notation is just a tool, not the main event, so that doesn't seem to matter.

I'm sure that profession conductors and orchestra player can read a score like a book, and recreate the music in their heads as they go. But I don't really need to do that just yet. Each month of practice makes me quicker at it though.

When I first had some piano lessons - many years ago - I had huge trouble trying to read the music. I actually started to think that I had some sort of 'musical dyslexia'.

But I found that if I scanned the music and blew it up - in the manner of those 'big print' books for kids or people with bad eyesight - then it was way easier to pull the information off the page. I also briefly used some flash cards to try and learn the note positions on the staff. But what really worked was just keeping on using it (the old practice, practice...). It just gradually gets faster and easier. I'll never be able to sight read a symphony straight off the page - but who cares!

Stick with it. It's a very handy skill to have. Not only is there a vast storehouse of music written that way that you can access, but it's very useful when you start delving into theory. It's also extremely useful if you want to make notes about your own compositions. (That sounds like a pun, but it's exactly what you do really.... )

Cheers,

Chris

[scott58]

I didn't know beans about music or playing or anything much 5 months ago. I only knew what I liked to listen too. What I found very helpful was getting the music (with tabs preferably) and putting in the cd of what I was interested in and following alone as the music played. I did this alot. And when I picked up the guitar and finally started trying to play it with my chord chart on the wall not only do you know what the note looks like on paper, you know what it sounds like, you know where it's at on the fretboard. Granted it took me months, but i'm starting to "get it" and I really feel it was well worth my time to do it.

[Dave Wallbridge]

Great subject, I've heard tale that reading skills are important but so too are memorisation of set pieces & that through memorisation a higher level of competence is reached.

From those of you who can almost sight read pieces I'd be interested to hear which skill you feel a new learner should develop most reading or playing from memory?

Look forward to learning more, Thanks!

[Fretsource]

Playing from memory is far more important than reading. Reading is a skill that helps you learn something and get it into memory, from where it can be played with more feeling.

[sabretalon]

From a different subject area but very much the same.

I do a lot of teaching, adults on computers and cameras etc..

The written stuff is mainly the rules! Once you know the rules you then also know how to break them.

As with all things, there are many ways of achieving your goals. With music, being able to read gives you the advantage in being able to read. Remembering/memorising the music and being able to recall it at need is in my opinion a better skill.

Remember I'm new at guitar but the same principle exists in whatever we learn. Sight reading is good but only really if you can read and play at the same speed! If your memory can recall the note/chord then it will be quicker than reading and therefore your brain only has to deal with knowing, rather than reading then knowing, if that makes any sense?

[Dave Wallbridge]

Thanks to the above contributors. I am a CG player & so am encoraged by the replies so far. I do however remember going to a local Nat King Cole tribute evening & talking to the players at interval time. The trio had played so well I was knocked out, even more so to find that they had been supplied their score parts 30 mins before starting & were having to sight their parts. This really knocked me out, note perfect at sight, whew! obviously much practice required here.

I therfore come back to my start point, why bother to memorise if the reading ability is developed to this level, where sighting a piece at speed is achievable?.........

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by Dave Wallbridge

I therfore come back to my start point, why bother to memorise if the reading ability is developed to this level, where sighting a piece at speed is achievable?.........

Because, even though they can read at such an advanced level, I'll bet that, given the choice, they'd rather play it from memory as it gives more scope for musical expression.

Look at the example of a piano, violin or or gutar concerto, where the solo instrument is contrasted against an orchestra. The orchestra players always play from written music but the soloist never does.

That's because the orchestra just needs to play the notes in front of them and relies on the conductior to bring out the expressiveness of the orchestra as a whole.
But the soloist needs to play with their own musical expressiveness - Reading from music limits that to some extent. Most of us might not even notice the difference, but the soloist obviously feels the performance is more musical when playing from memory.

I remember a classical guitar concert by John Williams, where he apologised for having to play one of the pieces from sheet music. Apparantly there had been a change to the programme a few days previously, and he hadn't had enough time to memorise the new piece.
John Williams, as you may know, has a reputation as a phenomenally accomplished sight reader, yet even he prefers the freedom of expression that comes from memorising.

[Ben_Sir_Amos]

Originally Posted by Dave Wallbridge

why bother to memorise if the reading ability is developed to this level, where sighting a piece at speed is achievable?.........

I think it is down to putting on a show.

If I am lost in an orchestra or band then I don't think many people will be bothered if I'm reading my part.

But if they've come to see a show, and I'm part of the front line, I think the audience would prefer to watch me putting on a show to watching me read. As it is, although the kind of gigs I do now involve me being the centre of attention, I usually have the first lines of lyrics, keys and verse/chorus sequences noted somewhere so that I don't have to rely solely on my failing memory.

And I might be persuaded that memorising is a superior skill if I hear that argument from someone who can sight read really well - but I only remember hearing it from people who haven't learnt to sight read. If I ever do hear sight readers telling me that they've wasted their time learning, I'll have to make a note so that I don't forget it.

[carol m]

For Attention Ben: check the dates on the 'music' link on your website - Oct 2007 hasn't happened yet.

[Dave Wallbridge]

Thanks once again. I feel it will be wise for me to cherry pick a proportion of what I learn and go on to memorise this selection, rather than try to memorise absolutely everthing. After all I'm still working through many exercise pieces & so don't really want to memoirise all

[Mike8307]

Music is a language, like English or French, etc. Only it uses different a different charachter set. (Then again, so does Russian, Hebrew, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, etc.) Therefore learning to read it, and comprehend it, is no different that how we learn to read the words in this forum. Researchers and educators have been trying to pinpoint how we learn to read for years. We know we learn, we're just not quite sure how. Yes, memorization is a big part of it.

Most people can achieve following a single note melody line fair easily with a little bit of work. Its like a child learning to read by sounding out each letter in each word. Slow and fustrating at first, but they get there. Fluency comes when you can recognize words and not the letters that make up the words, and beyond that, groups of words at a time.

So to answer the question I think that memorizing is the beginings of reading and a normal step.

For me I have no problem with the single note melody line. I do have problems recognizing a chord as a chord. I still stop and look at a ... D, A, D, F#... "OK.. A D CHORD" I guess its time for the flash cards for me.

Michael

[Dave Wallbridge]

Michael, great reply. I'd not thought to analyise the process in this way. It does however tie in directly with a comment made by the double bass player at the Nat King Cole concert I cited earlier in the thread.

He clearly stated that, with much practice, on sight recognition of groups of notes prompt's an auto finger response. I've therefore got to have patience & ton's of practice in order to develop my individual sighting skills.

I did visit a local CG group who cherish sighting skills to the degree that each ensemble session contains a 20 min part review accompanioed by performance at sight.

I guess the realisation that becoming a WHOLE musician will require ALL music skills to be worked on over a period of time, Sighting parts is amongst these.

Happy playing....Dave