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Should sites like this be shut down?

Do you think sites like this should be shut down  

1 member has voted

  1. 1. Do you think sites like this should be shut down

    • Yes
      4
    • No
      305


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justinthyme    3

Personally, I believe that those who are concerned that tab will or does make any significant dent in music business revenue has probably not thought the issue through in any depth. As a relative newcomer to guitar playing I am unable to read music (but working on that). Right now, tab helps me to learn, tho I appreciate that it is often wrong. However, tab has undeniably played a role in hooking me on guitar playing and when I eventually learn to read music properly (yes, I really AM working on that), guess what? I will be buying sheet music (actally, I've already started) so that I can play songs as they were intended by the original artist. The next step from there will be to make my own variations of that music, and who knows ... maybe produce some decent tab to help other beginners out. Let's hope the record companies see some sense, even if on the basis of 'any publicity is better than no publicity'.

Cheers

Ian aka justinthyme

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Andy S    9

" I believe that those who are concerned that tab will or does make any significant dent in music business revenue has probably not thought the issue through in any depth"

Way wrong there Ian. Unfortunately, these folks have sat around for a LOOoong time thinking about it. Many musicians, years ago, lost the rights to their songs when they signed recording contracts and didn't read the small print that gave all the rights to the song to the company. They've gotten a bit wiser now. But, the illegal use of the song, copyright infringment, covers a broad swing of things.

I sat through a 2 hours session on copyright laws a few years ago for our church. I was the worship leader for a while. It is surprising (also sad) to know that a lot of churches are still operating today without paying for a simple license for permission to use the songs on a Sunday morning. Some of the songs are written by independent writers, not a member of a band that made a lot of cash from the recording and touring. So, yeh, that writer would like to see as much money from his song as possible.

There are some writers that have written only one or two songs that were recorded by name acts. The royalties only go so far. Then it's back to sweeping floors at Kmart until the next song gets recorded.

Now, as for sites like this one, well, Kirk is not trying to make any money from the tabs and charts he put on here. Someone earlier had mentioned labelling the songs on the order of " this song is in vein od such & such". But if it is too close, it may be hit up on the idea of it being a derivative of the original song. I read that just changing the melody a bit, or changing the key or a couple of chords is not always enough.

I do know that prior to our church getting a CCLI license for the worship songs, I had to call or fax each publisher for permission. Some were free, they sent me a blanket form giving me permission to play the songs & make one time use chord charts for any of their stuff. Another company only charged 25 cents per chart ( total $4) while another company wanted to charge $25 for a one time use. (needless to say THAT song was dropped from our list!)

Personally, I think learning sites, where there is an actual person trying to impart lessons, should be given some credit or discount for usage. Sites that just post tabs or lyrics and don't pay anything, well, give them the option to pay a small fee, or turn off the lights & lock the door on the way out.

Just my opinion.

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PickNGrin    0

Just want to support Andrew above --I believe his assessment is the most accurate --Indeed, posting tab IS taking away profits.

However........I am OLD enough to REMEMBER the days before tab -when published sheet music was the ONLY way.

...AND I HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN.............................................

How inaccurate, incomplete, and just plain BAD those sheet music sheets were!

The lyrics were alright, and maybe the music worked for piano....but it sure was not accurate for guitar!!!!!!

Always the wrong tunings, poor chord inversions, wrong chords, lack of any riffs, etc etc.

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justinthyme    3

Points well taken Andy and PickNGrin. I certainly agree that playing or publishing copyrighted material for profit in any way shape or form should incur royalty payments.

I have no idea whether or not the music industry themselves produce and sell tab widely (perhaps someone will enlighten me?). If so, then of course I see how 'amateur' tab being published on the net could impact their bottom line, my arguments fall away and the reader should skip to [fine]. imho, though, its unlikely that if tab could ever be 'stopped' hordes of budding guitarists would be out there buying industry-published tablature. Possibly a moot point, I know, given the (yet to be determined?) copyright infringement.

If the music industry does not publish and sell tab, then that begs the question - if you transcribe the music for yourself, is that OK? Isn't the effect basically the same in that you learn to play somebody else's material and they aren't being paid for it?

For that matter, what about well-known copyrighted songs learned from your guitar teacher?

[fine]

One thought - not that I put this forward as relevant argument in this discussion - but I wonder how many of the musicians who currently contribute to record industry coffers used tab to help them get where they are today? Anyone know when tab was first developed?

Cheers

Ian aka justinthyme

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Andy S    9

"I have no idea whether or not the music industry themselves produce and sell tab widely (perhaps someone will enlighten me?)."

Well, yeh, some publishers do tab. I have a couple of books where the Standard notation is included with the TAB just below it. It gives you a reference as to the timing and phrasing, etc. And I have seen some books that were just TAB. And, as mentioned in another poll about "did you get your moneys worth" more frequently than not, the tabs are pretty poorly done.

The books I have, fortunately, are done quite well.

" if you transcribe the music for yourself, is that OK? Isn't the effect basically the same in that you learn to play somebody else's material and they aren't being paid for it?"

No. A person can learn the song on their own. That is fine. If that person then goes out & performs the song, for monetary reward, and does not pay a royalty, that is a copyright infringement. Now, it has been years since I played in a band that played in clubs and bars, but at that time, the establishment you played in was responsible for paying a licensing fee to BMI/ASCAP. I believe that is still the case. In that situation, the band learned the song, then played it, but it was covered by the clubs license.

Way back when I played, one of the guys, or even several of the guys, would buy the record or album ( YES!! I SAID RECORD!! it was that long ago!:rolleyes: ) We would learn the song by ear. The artist & publishing company got their cash, we learned the song (no tab back then) and the club paid the fees. Everyone was happy.

Nowadays, with TAB as well as the internet, it becomes easy for , literally, millions of folks to share TABs or chord charts with just the click of a mouse key. So, I can see where some of the companies are getting a bit twisted in the shorts about the money.

Add to that the fact that the revenue for CDs is way down over the last few years. That on its own is another topic, on why folks don't buy CDs as much as they used to. But I think that is why the music industry is trying to squeeze as much income as they can from any source.

"For that matter, what about well-known copyrighted songs learned from your guitar teacher?"

Whoops! Well, I would suppose by all rights, that should be hit with a fee. He is using it to make money. Is it nitpicking, you bet. Would a lot of teachers conveniently "forget" to track the songs they teach, you bet.

There is a company that teaches the "styles" of artists and types of music played by certain artists. The music on their CDs is very close to some of the riffs by the artist.

I think they are trying to skirt the issue by mentioning it is just the style of a particular artist. I suppose, though, if push came to shove, they could get hit with a lawsuit for using a derivative of the song. (see George Harrison & My sweet Lord:( )

I think what we will end up seeing is some of the more popular TAB sites pressured to either pay a licensing fee or shut down. It would be very costly for them to go after every site & individual teacher. And, it would also NOT be very good PR. I am sure some folks would rebel and start email campaigns or bombard the companies with letters & threats of boycotting the artists.

"but I wonder how many of the musicians who currently contribute to record industry coffers used tab to help them get where they are today?"

Hmm? Good question! Some of the guys like Steve Vai, Clapton, Santana....Nah! They learned the old fashioned way.

Now, some of the newer players, well, I would not be surprised at all if they got started with TAB.

"Anyone know when tab was first developed?" I don't have any idea, but I know that once it came out in the guitar magazines, the number of good players jumped dramatically. Not that they understood what they were playing!:P

Well, Looks like I got carried away , better step down off the soapbox and take my meds!:rolleyes:

Later!

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PickNGrin    0

Geez Andy --You know your stuff, could'nt agree more or said it better. I too, used to spend a LONG time with a vinyl record learning by ear, and deciphering the lyrics -remember how HARD it was to try and drop the stylus at the right spot on the record?

There was no other way -we had to work for it.

I can add this though,

"When was tab invented"

Believe it or not, WAAAAY back in early history, before guitar was what it is today. Supposedly, there are examples of tab 100's of years old for instruments like the lute.

However--from my personal life experiance, ---tab did not catch on and was not popular until about the mid to late 80's. --It was basically unheard of when I learned to play --I had to learn how to read music.

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6string    81

yes Clapton etc learned the hard way but they admit that they did copy & rip off other peoples licks etc

i think the bottom line is the music industry is greedy & are lucky to make as much as they already do

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Clancy    36
Most of the lessons on this site are public domain including the songs

House of the Rising Sun

Greensleeves

jingle bells

amazing grace

forbidden games

love me tender - the music for this song is actually called "Aura Lee" which Elvis & Vera Matson put words to.

6string, did you find this information on the Internet? If so, where? I was looking at www.pdinfo.com - I found all but Forbidden Games there. Not sure about "Love Me Tender" - I think that one would be ok if we didn't have the title of "Love me Tender" - using that I think might be seen as an infringement... ah the joy of it all :oops:

Clancy

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missileman    0

This is already hitting TAB sites. This is from one of my favorites Power Tab Archives:

[December 17th, 2005] Due to the recent actions of the MPA (see here), we had to change the available content temporarily. More information will be posted soon. Sorry for any inconveniences this change may cause. Thank you for your understanding and patience.

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missileman    0

My last post has spawned me to dish out the $59 USD for Guitar Pro v5 which includes a free download of the entire 40,000 tabs from My Songbook.(while I still can)

I am too old to have any desire of listening to a song a thousand times to figure it out.

I have over 300 cassettes, 500 CDs, several large boxes of albums and a waist high stack of music books. I have dished out my fair share to the artist and producers, I feel no guilt whatsoever in downloading a few free tabs.:mad:

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6string    81
6string, did you find this information on the Internet? If so, where? I was looking at www.pdinfo.com - I found all but Forbidden Games there. Not sure about "Love Me Tender" - I think that one would be ok if we didn't have the title of "Love me Tender" - using that I think might be seen as an infringement... ah the joy of it all :oops:

Clancy

I read it in a book somewhere about the Elvis song, its probably on the net somewhere.

Forbidden Games is not the real name of the song, its really called Romanza or Romance in english. Its by anonymous, definitely public domain.

I checked out the pd site also. You'll find Aura lee there as public domain, just download a free midi or mp3 of it and you'll see its the same song.

I think your okay with the name "Love me Tender" because your just using the melody for it, which is public domain, and your not using the lyrics. I dont think they can own a title to a song the same as lyrics as we have many different songs with the same name. You should be able to call it Love Me Tender and put your own lyrics to it if you want to.

Another thing in your favor is your operating form Australia, even if they won in the U.S,A they would have to start all over in your country to try and shut you down and not necessarily win. i.e. so far in Canada its not illegal to down load mp3's off the internet as per the last Court decision.

The 1st thing they try and do is scare you into shutting down, they really dont want to go to court, it cost them money also.

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Clancy    36

Forbidden Games is not the real name of the song, its really called Romanza or Romance in english.

ah yes, you're right, I forgot about that.

You'll find Aura lee there as public domain, just download a free midi or mp3 of it and you'll see its the same song.

I think your okay with the name "Love me Tender" because your just using the melody for it, which is public domain, and your not using the lyrics. I dont think they can own a title to a song the same as lyrics as we have many different songs with the same name. You should be able to call it Love Me Tender and put your own lyrics to it if you want to

I'll do that. I'm not so sure about using the title of the song but I'll look into that further. What you're saying makes sense to me but these things don't always make sense. :(

Another thing in your favor is your operating form Australia, even if they won in the U.S,A they would have to start all over in your country to try and shut you down and not necessarily win...

For now maybe... I'm actually contacting publishers at the moment and really getting nowhere, it's a grey area and I'm getting the run-around... nobody seems to be able to give me a definitive answer... It's just before Christmas and over here it's hard to get anywhere with any compnay in the summer holidays, that could be part of the problem, but I'll keep trying.

i.e. so far in Canada its not illegal to down load mp3's off the internet as per the last Court decision.

I did hear about that a while back, I'm not so sure I agree with that ruling especially now that it's so easy to legally buy music online track by track. I think it is taking away from the musician and others involved in the production. I'm not quite sure how they justified that decision actually....

Thanks for all that 6string, it's appreciated :)

Clancy

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6string    81

here's the thoughts/quote of the Owner of TotalTabs.com

Korry

Administrator

Gender:

Posts: 2966

Re: MPA - Please read

« Reply #4 on: 12/17/05 at 12:38pm » Quote Modify

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well the MPA has no rights over ANY music they wish. They don't own the copyrights to all printed music. The artist owns the copyrights. The publishing company only owns the right to the their actual printing of the music. So, the way I look at it, unless I'm copying their music out of their book, they have no right to claim ownership.

Still, my theory is: keep a low profile and slide under the radar. That way I'll save the lawyer fees. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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David    0

Ever since I started trying to learn guitar a couple years ago, my music purchases have gone trough the roof. I surf around, find a tune I am interested in, try to learn it, then hit the wall 'cause I don't have the recording, and TAB won't show me the timing... Then I buy it. So I believe the crack-down is kind of stupid and self-defeating.

Just the same, I am real sorry to hear of this.

But if the Man comes and busts our fun, I'll bet there are ways GfB could re-invent itself... I'd pay anything to learn to play Coyote Wary, for example...

Keep on rockin'

David

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danthelion    0

The info found at this link seems to agree with what I have read in reference books. Guitar tab seems to have borrowed it's system from Lute music tab from the Renaissance period. So it has been around for centuries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablature

Do you think this argument has anything to do with the discussion?

"To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research". ;-)

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sale    0
:mad: :mad: :mad: This is funny, you pay for tab book and you don't get anything and know they are gonna shut down all site that teach you guitar for free.

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allthumbs    8

No G.B. That was someone else. If you had voted no there would be 2 no votes instead of one. No big deal, we almost never seek vengence on wrong doers at xmas. However there may be cash penalties if i run low on beer money before xmas is over. Ha ha.

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WernHalen    0

A quick question, Would they have a problem with me teaching my buddies copyrighted songs on the guitar? I understand that music teachers are getting paid for that but what about if i taught a buddy of mine for free? I am not making any money out of the process and neither is he. I would have thought that the same applies to your site your doing it for free... Maybe you should change it from a membership forum to a friendship forum. Then we would all become friends who teach each other for free...

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