Should sites like this be shut down?

[allthumbs 8]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm

I don't agree with this at all. The use of tab increases music sales IMHO. I know that I need to buy the music to get the information not found on tabs if I want complete accuracy. Tabs encourage new players to get into music by allowing them to play their favorite tunes. New players buy lots of gear and books. The music industry is making dollars and arguing over pennies. Pure greed.

[Kirk Lorange 128]

Oh, boy ... this site will no doubt be targeted.

I agree with you, allthumbs, I really don't feel like we're stealing anything from anybody with these lessons and that in fact we're promoting those works in a small way. That would mean anybody teaching a published song to anybody, or playing it in their garage band, would be guilty too. It's ridiculous. I have an album out and I wouldn't be in any way flustered if I saw one of my tunes tabbed out. I would assume that people would buy the album so they could hear the original and that they'd buy any new albums.

I did contact the Australian Performing Rights Association last week about this very thing ... still no word back, but we all know that money solves all problems and unless the fee is right out of the ball park, I'll just pay them what they want ... like a restaurant or night club that plays songs that are published.

Let's do a poll.

[Kirk Lorange 128]

This is in response to allthumbs post about this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/4508158.stm

I know this site is a lot more than just an archive of (usually inaccurate) tablature, but it does make use of well known tunes to teach guitar. I certainly wouldn't have put all the effort I put into this site what I was doing is illegal and the fact is: the Internet has changed everything about everything, including teaching guitar. I don't think anyone wastes their time hunting down guitar teachers who have a few dozen students learning 'House of the Rising Sun' ... teachers who are actually making money from their lessons.

What do you think? (I do realize we're all biased here, but vote anyway!)

[Zakalwe 0]

Kirk,

I'm sure there is an acceptance of using copyrighted materials as a teaching aid. I couldn't cite any actual law on that, but I'm pretty sure no one is likely to point the finger at a site like this.

As rapacious as the record labels are, I think they are mostly interested in going after real threats to their revenue, rather than just chasing anyone and everyone who does something even slightly related to their copyrighted material.

Also, I believe from what I've read that the record labels generally own the actual recordings, but the artists themselves usually own the actual words and music of their songs "as written".

[allthumbs 8]

One of thier points just makes no sense. They say writers are losing revenue since people are not buying their sheet music. It is very difficult sometimes to find sheet music for just one tune. I hate to think of all the tab books I have had to buy over the years to get just a couple of tunes I wanted. I must have John Denvers Jet Plane song in at least 6 tab books around the house. The writer got paid up front or are paid royalties for each sale or airing of their tune. Most people end up buying the music so they can fill in the blanks in the tabs so money still changes hands. Making music accesible promotes new players who buy more gear which helps fuel the whole music industry. I feel sites that are not turning a profit using tabs should be left alone.

[6string 114]

If somebody votes yes, they are a spy for the MPA and should be banned from the site.

Writers are losing revenue??? dont writers usually sell their songs outright??

[missileman 0]

We had this same discussion on another site and the general consencus was as long as you are posting YOUR rendition of a song that is not the same as the original then it is not a copywrite violation.

We will see how this plays out but I wouldn't worry too much about the way you are presenting things here.

[Jean 0]

Kirk, I accidentally pressed "yes" on the poll, I really didn't do it on purpose...

I think it sucks that some people put a copyright on their music, so others can't even play a simalir sounding tune, I'am sorry for pressin' yes, I'm not a spy for the MSA or whatever:p Sorry about it.

[Jean 0]

*imho

[Clancy 41]

Kirk, I accidentally pressed "yes" on the poll, I really didn't do it on purpose...

I think it sucks that some people put a copyright on their music, so others can't even play a simalir sounding tune, I'am sorry for pressin' yes, I'm not a spy for the MSA or whatever:p Sorry about it.

Hi Jean... We did wonder who voted yes, but when I saw it was you, we immediately knew you must have made a mistake clicking the wrong button - we didn't really think you'd turned on us.

Clancy

[6string 114]

what next ?? is it going to be illegal to sing along with a song on the radio??!!??

[6string 114]

hmmmmmmm... i don't know.......... maybe this Jean character needs more investigation

[mushroomlord 0]

I think the lessons on this site are fairly far removed from a complete and accurate transcription of any copyrighted work. They are usually in a different key/pitch, often fragments of songs with subtle variations and are for teaching purposes.

Maybe you should start drawing more of a line Kirk... 'This song is in the style of..xx. it is in the key of G, has no intro, no lyrics and the end of the verse section is embelished with ...'

I agree with missileman as long as it's your own interpretation it should be fine. Take that freedom and run with it

[allthumbs 8]

I don't think this site would be too high on their list which would be very very long. Anyone who has bought a bluegrass tab book would laugh at the idea of using them soley to learn a tune. They are the most innacurate tab books available. You figure that they have guys turning out tabs from standard who may not even play so they don't catch mistakes. Better to have something tabbed out by someone who loves or at least has an interest in the tune. This whole thing is a tempest in a teapot and will probably come to nothing. Either way it will be years for it to get anywhere.

[Buddy Love 0]

Allthumbs,

You are right about the Bluegrass books. Also, how many different interpretations can there be for 'Go Tell Aunt Roadie?'

It is amazing to me about open mike nights around here. You can't play anything copyrighted but only public domain songs. Then after the show, "Man, your rendition of 'Go Tell Aunt Roadie' really rocked maa-aaan."

Well, I'm gone for a few days. Got PT today so it is off to reading.

Dan

[Joke 0]

I think music in every way belongs to the people. If I love a song, i go and buy a record or cd. So the artist who wrote or play, sing the songs get there money.

If no one would want to learn new songs or would not give it to others, this world would be without music, a sad place.

We would not know about Bach, Beethoven, Mozart or the Beatles.

So I think, everyone should be just happy that a place like this exist.

Sorry, my english isnt that good, but i hope i could bring my opinien across.

[stubbie7 1]

How totally and completely moronic this is. The excuse was being made that artists were being deprived of their fair share (referring to things in the past like music downloads). Now this is just complete greed; searching for a way to make even more money.

I love what 6string says about singing along with the radio. Personally, I think real musicians don't care and have a lot more in their lives to worry about. Doesn't it make sense that if tabs and lyrics are available and more people learn how to perform certain pieces they are more likely to end up performing in situations where royalties are indeed called for?

Just when you think you have heard it all...

[6string 114]

Most of the lessons on this site are public domain including the songs

House of the Rising Sun

Greensleeves

jingle bells

amazing grace

forbidden games

love me tender - the music for this song is actually called "Aura Lee" which Elvis & Vera Matson put words to.

Maybe some of the other songs are also, not sure how many years it takes to become public domain, it used to be 50 yrs but I think they may have extended that.

[Jean 0]

hmmmmmmm... i don't know.......... maybe this Jean character needs more investigation

[dora 0]

next thing you know they'll want you all to play with mitts on!!!!!!

[Clancy 41]

Please note: I have merged the original thread regarding this issue (started in the chit chat forum by allthumbs) into this thread to keep all the posts together.

Clancy

[Jean 0]

Thankyou Clancy, now you guys know I'm not a spy...

[Clancy 41]

Thankyou Clancy, now you guys know I'm not a spy...

Well we don't know that for sure now do we

[Cullmac 0]

I can understand that it MAY be taking away from other peoples profits, but on the otherhand i feel this move is slightly greedy. A lot of the time musicians can work out how to play a song for themselves anyway so i don't see any harm on showing others how to play a song using tabs. If i want an accurate musical score i can read while playing then i will buy the music.

[PickNGrin 0]

There is no tab to speak of here. They went after Ultimate-Guitar months ago -Hal Leonard. I got a legal opinion that felt "if you are deliberatly, and intentionally attempting to reproduce, that would be a copyright infringment" so -that fact that our tabs "by ear" -my fail to exactly reproduce is not the point.

Take for example George Harrison being sued by Bright Music because "My Sweet Lord" sounded like "He's So Fine" ...George lost. ...It was not an exact copy...and he wasnt even trying!

UG, which is a HUGE tab site, has escaped ..they think...for now by applying for and being granted a license under Russion law -where they reside.

I really cant see this site being targeted.