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Jove d'Ark

Amazing What the New Generation want

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r1p32    1
I think it's pretty simple really. The corporation decides what is going to make the money this month and the spindoctors of the media make it so. It has to change often 'cos kids get bored quickly and are constantly looking for more 'bang'. That usually means the more trashy and offensive it is, the more likely it will sell.

P.S. I love metal, real metal that is ... Sabbath, Iron maiden, etc!

so true..prolly y i dont like a lot of the ppl at my skool. so i guess its safe to say that MTV IS THE WORST. barely plays music and wen it does, its terrible. prolly y i barely watch tv anymore (actually thats prolly the guitar's fault lol) yea wern halen i totally agree with u 100%

but i guess todays metal that u guys are referring to(screamo) is sorta designed for the teens. cuz if im not mistaken cuz i dont listen to that, its usually about ex-girlfriends and depression. and teens relate to that. and im sure they think "hey this guy is say EXACTLY how i feel man' thats all they care about. even if the instruments are riduclessly simple. (worst ppl ever)

but to help 8LU3 out, i also love metal. even todays. but it has to have good instruments for me to like it. i guess the fall out boy stuff got me trying to ignore the catchy hooks and looking for the MUSIC! hehe i guess it also explains y the cds im buying arent recent at all (kill 'em all and blizzard of ozz are my latest) and yea i hate american idol so much. but i guess its also up to us (my generation) to expose ourselves to good music. like my little bro is learning guitar and guess wat cds he's burning...QUEEN

oh and tool is awesome, truely an influence to me. they have really intelligent and deep lyrics and most importantly THEY CAN ALL REALLY PLAY. danny carey is an very very amazing drummer. adam jones has great guitar solos and justin chancellor has awesome basslines

OUR WORLD NEEDS SOME LED ZEPPELIN!!!!

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WernHalen    0

Paul,

I agree whole heartedly with you about this one... Environment makes even a cameleon change colour, what would it not do for the most adaptable species on earth...

What I find frustrating at best is the fact that the music that these guys make, from their experiences, lures young innocent minds into the same environmet that these guys are singing about, and which i believe they (the rappers) want to get out of. It is like promoting war, young minds dont always have the maturity to see what dangers lies behind the war, all they see is the glory and excitement... (ok that might be a bad example... :oops: )

I also think we should remeber that the fact that you are rich does not mean you did not have dad experiences... Emotional rejection happens in even the richest houses... I do believe however that these 'rich rappers' blow things out of proportion to get the ratings, like you said.

Jove, I agree that the music was made by an expert composer, and what you are saying is completelycorrect. I just want to add that you still get expert composers, even if they might not be composing the music like bach or mozart would have. i wanted to name a couple of bands with brilliant compositions but instead i would direct you to a station that plays album rock or album songs. These are the songs that are not released as singles. I dont know why but they are of much better quality music than the singles being listed... I find hours of enjoyment form these channels...

Ahh well here are a couple of bands that i think are the composers of today...

Dream theatre, The Rasmus, Metallica, Tourniquet (dont even know if they are still together), Hillsong United, Black Eyed peas (although I only appreciate some of their music.) etc. etc.

IMHO

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8LU3    0
even if they might not be composing the music like bach or mozart would have

this is completely true, people today dont call as much for "classical" compositions. music changes with time, and at the time we live in, violins and clarinets are being replaced with much more 'crude' instruments such as guitars and drums (not insulting these instruments, just saying).

also, music changes with technology, look at some of the older even rock stuff. the guitar is much les dynamic to some because of the lack of distortion and the classical feel, which goes back to the time argument.

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Jove d'Ark    0

Hi Kid,

I seriously appreciate your deep sense of Social Justice, especially so since it is very mature for one who appears so young. But in this instance may I gently remind you that I was NOT referring to the Tragedy of peoples upbringing, but Importantly to the educated Understanding of the Science Of Music.

I cannot begin to tell you how much I respect you because at such a young age You can see and feel the difference of a person re=telling via music the tragic circumstances that bind thier life as opposed to the white freaks and Rich kids such as M and M, jumping on the band wagon, in vile exploitation. But my latest post was not about social environment which shapes., moulds and controls our personal existance.

It was more about a well educated mind.

And believe me kid, those controlling the MEDIA which floods your daily existence, do all they can to stifle and suffocate YOUR Mind. Its a precious gift. guard it well!!

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USGold    0

I can't help but thinking of the plot to the movie-"Josey and the Pussycats"---where corporations-to sell more merchandise-totally exploited both the musicians and manulipulated the masses--all for the sake of the allmighty dollar--there's something too close to the real truth hidden in this films theme---beware MTV--it isn't about the music in any way means or sense. IMO if the music isn't being or can't be played live on stage with instruments-it isn't real ---remember MILLI VANILLI--how they were ridiculed--now all the "POP" singers work to canned soundtracks----enough--this whole subject makes me feel like i want to puke---musicians of the world revolt--stop prostituting your talents for the money.

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Jove d'Ark    0

It would seem that I have touched upon a very DEBATABLE and SENSITIVE TOPIC!!!

That being, What Truly Constitutes a REAL COMPOSER.

What is REAL COMPOSITIONAL MASTERY?

From the outset may I say to all, I have existed for many decades, and in the doing I have learned that the passage of years has dramatic Impact upon how we view life. I think there was once a book written titled..The Getting OF Wisdom.. And Believe me as you age This is an unavoidable fact. The mere fact of ageing is compounded by the Influx of NEW Knowledge and I will defy any to tell me that what they thought was of Earth Shattering Import at 16, still hold that same view at 30 something.

Now believe me, I have travelled from 16 to an age well beyond 30 and I was once a kid who could not imagine life without Mr Green and Hendrix blaring through my soul. Yet these days I now view a lot of what Jimi did as mere garbage. White noise!

Same applies to COMPOSITION!

How does one equate a "Riff' a 'Hook' that may have us buzzing and humming, but only last for 3-5 minutes, against a man or woman who is capable of taking that same collection of NOTES/HARMONY and turning it into something that can be MIRRORED/EXPANDED and RESOLVED through 100 plus Instruments and is capable of Holding hundreds/ thousands/millions Deeply Enthralled for 20 minutes at the minimum? And believe me BEFORE YOU Can achieve this feat, YOU have to know EXACTLY what each and every one of those INSTRUMENTS is Capable of achieving and More importantly HOW to ACHIEVE it!!

Deep in your heart if you were capable, would you want HIstory to Respect your Lifes sacrifice as a mere "Ditty" or something that inspired vast numbers of Humanity to travel vast distances and expend much time and energy in persuit of YOUR Lifes Work.

Would YOU as a COMPOSER want your efforts to last 5 maybe 7 Decades or 5 maybe 7 Centuries?

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Jove d'Ark    0

MUSIC MANNED NOT CANNED,

Was a Catch Cry of Rebellious Youths such as I was some 35 years ago When John Revolta and the Heeby GB's SOLD out our most BELOVED. This was the Turning Point whereby BIG BUSINESS payed DEATH to LIVE MUSICIANSHIP!!

Our Beloved pastime of going out to hear REAL PEOPLE Playing REAL MUSIC, was encapsulated into a MACHINE.

Businessmen and Gangsters who had no love of anything other than MONEY, were supported by THE GREATEST MAFIA OF ALL>>HOLLYWOOD..In thier attemp at MAXIMIZING PROFIT by TERMINATING The Very source of Music.. PEOPLE. From this point on it was all taken care of by MACHINES!!

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WernHalen    0

Three four decades and beyond much like Metallica, Queen and the Rolling Stones...

Just Kidding Jove... ;)

I hear you...

I must also add that not everybody has the mental capability to enjoy and appreciate Mozart or Beethoven or Strauss...At some point the information from the music just becomes too much to bear and peoples minds switch off... that is when people say, that is junk... I think that is why so many 3 chord songs make the front as well. People can take it in and remeber it much quicker and much longer than a Opus by Beethoven.

I have a problem with the older generation in South Africa. We have a bunch of people listening to cheap techno afrikaans boere music. Real 3 chord junk catchy but rubbish... I listen to songs woth much more intricate chord progressions and they all think it is garbage... They have difficulty listening to Mozart as well, where I love classical music. I dont own any but listen to it on the radio.

Much the same as someone ridiculing Jazz because it sounds like a bunch of noise. The chord structures and progressions are just to big for the untrained brain to handle. This can be changed with time and ear training of course. ( I used to hate Jazz, and i still find the hardcore jazz stuff a bit hard to swallow...)

Scott, now I am going to see MTV promoting pussycat-ear-alice-bands everytime I see the 'junk' music on... :laughingg:

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Jove d'Ark    0

Totally agree,

ADVISARIAL LAWERS have done so much potentially IRREPARABLE HARM to Us, as a Society, that the EFFECT will be felt for decades to come. And psychologist and psychiatrists are simply deluding Humanity into believing that they have a LEGITMATE purpose.

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Jove d'Ark    0

HEY YOU,

SERIOUSLY PLEASED to Note that You are coming from South Africa. Although I live a Vast distance away in Australia, I have been very deeply connectd to the troubles of your country for many years, First and foremost my deepest love is MUSIC as is I am certain the Heart of AFRICA, but I cannot extricate myself from some innate connection that has me railing against Politicians and corrupt businessmen who set themselves up as Dictators, and thier persecution of decent God folk.

As to the jazz thing, I have an associate Diploma of Jazz Studies, but when it comes to such things as FREE Jazz, I find it all a little overpowering and not quite Musical. a bit like Schoenburges 12 tone matrix. or Serial music.

Serialism if you are not familiar was a mathematical approach to music wherby ALL 12 Semitones had to be played with no repeats before any embellishments were introduced. And these very same 12 semitones formed the Whole piece. Musically to my ears this was simply a collection of noises because to my ears it lacked that essential ingredient..Harmonic relationship.

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Cedric01    0
I can't help but thinking of the plot to the movie-"Josey and the Pussycats"---where corporations-to sell more merchandise-totally exploited both the musicians and manulipulated the masses--all for the sake of the allmighty dollar--there's something too close to the real truth hidden in this films theme---beware MTV--it isn't about the music in any way means or sense. IMO if the music isn't being or can't be played live on stage with instruments-it isn't real ---remember MILLI VANILLI--how they were ridiculed--now all the "POP" singers work to canned soundtracks----enough--this whole subject makes me feel like i want to puke---musicians of the world revolt--stop prostituting your talents for the money.

Hey! What happen to the Spice Girls!:laughingg:

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Cedric01    0
by noise no one understands i assume youre talking about metal. and i really really think you should listen to some and ACTUALLY listen before you judge the music so. people get metal wrong all the time.

Atta boy! That's the right attitude.:clap:

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nocat    0

On the intrinsic value of music:

Although some very good points have been made as to what constitutes good music, I

think a point has been side stepped... Ultimately the listener, and only the listener can

decide the value of any given composition... Just because a fractal is mathematically

perfect, it does not mean it is by default a masterpiece of art...

The idea that a composers ability to arrange music for a 20 piece orchestra makes him

any more creative or talented than a guy sitting on his bed with a guitar and arranging

3 chords into a simple song that, upon being heard, will move one to tears, IMO, is closed

minded...!!!

To some, the sound of rain drops on a tin roof is exquisite music. To others, a screeching

overdriven, distorted guitar sounds beautiful. Others yet, can appreciate the beauty in

both extremes...

Great music is what moves you as an individual, and one should take care when

criticising any particular genre...

On another front... The fact that an individual possesses indepth mechanical knowledge

of an art form does not automatically ascend him to the status of artist. It simply means

that he understands how it works... I contend that, a truly creative person, need not

be a technician, and armed with just a fundamental understanding, an imaginative

and creative person, can give birth to a masterpiece worthy of study and dissection

by a theorist...

In my mind, the most troublesome aspect of artistry lies in the regurgitation rather than

creation... Most of what I hear today is not original or creative, and it is taken to the

extreme by the whole sampling movement that is so prevalent in music recently...!!!

*Steps down from soapbox, and hides behind it...* :tomato:

Cheers

Ben

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Jove d'Ark    0

Nocat writes..

... Great music is what moves you as an individual, and one should take care when criticising any particular genre...

Cannot fully agree with this one.

For mine music that moves you is Great music only to you.

But Truly GREAT music, is music that pleases, Uplifts and Inspires the the entire human race as a whole. It transcends Race, Culture and Creed and spans as a bridge to reach out and unite whether you be 16 or 116.although this has much to do with the Maturity of the mind of the Individual. I have met many kids with mature minds and likewise many adults who are more infantile in their mind than some of the kids I know.

I seriously doubt whether such affectation known as Grunge or Shred will truly inspire people who will be born 500 years from now, But I am pretty certain that music from the minds of such Luminaries as Bach, Beethoven et al will still resonate strongly.

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Jove d'Ark    0

Nocat Also writes.

...On another front... The fact that an individual possesses indepth mechanical knowledge

of an art form does not automatically ascend him to the status of artist. It simply means that he understands how it works... I contend that, a truly creative person, need not be a technician, and armed with just a fundamental understanding, an imaginative

and creative person, can give birth to a masterpiece worthy of study and dissection

by a theorist...

In my mind, the most troublesome aspect of artistry lies in the regurgitation rather than

creation... Most of what I hear today is not original or creative, and it is taken to the

extreme by the whole sampling movement that is so prevalent in music recently...!!!

*Steps down from soapbox, and hides behind it...*

To this I fully agree except that LAST.

YOU have no need to Hide. You have simply done what is a GOD Given Birthright and expressed your MIND. as one US President said.." I may not agree with what you just said, but I will fight to the death to preserve your right to say it".. I think it was Abraham Lincholn?

The only people that need to hide are those who cannot abide anyone expressing a different POV than theirs. And this is readily visible in todays world where the Media Moguls are doing thier utmost to control what we see, hear, eat and listen too.

NEVER be afraid to express your Mind, especailly when it only speaks a Truth as YOU see it, and harbours no Evil intent to any soul.

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nocat    0

For mine music that moves you is Great music only to you.

But Truly GREAT music, is music that pleases, Uplifts and Inspires the the entire human race as a whole. It transcends Race, Culture and Creed and spans as a bridge to reach out and unite whether you be 16 or 116.although this has much to do with the Maturity of the mind of the Individual. I have met many kids with mature minds and likewise many adults who are more infantile in their mind than some of the kids I know.

I seriously doubt whether such affectation known as Grunge or Shred will truly inspire people who will be born 500 years from now, But I am pretty certain that music from the minds of such Luminaries as Bach, Beethoven et al will still resonate strongly.

I respect your opinion, Jove, and can understand your point, but to say that any one

genre of music can please, uplift and inspire the whole human race is a bit of an over reach...

There is a large percentage of the population that, if it may be said, could not care less

about music. Their interest lies in other forms of entertainment, and if music as a whole

should suddenly cease to exist, it would be no major burden for them...

Of the majority that is left, music is simply a pleasant background noise to their daily lives,

something to listen to in their cars on the way to and from work, something to dance to

in the clubs and at weddings, something to fill in the gaps of silence at the family barbeque...

Then you have the ones that are active participants... People who create jingles for

commercials, background music for movies and tv shows, Etc... For these people,

music is a way of generating income for themselves, and although we can agree that

some of these compositions can be catchy, they would hardly constitute high art...

Then you have the melting pot that contains 'popular music'... This is where 99% of

those people that will actually lay down their hard earned cash are located...

By far, the majority of those people that care enough about music to go out and

buy the latest release, will fall into this category... This again can be subdivided

by culture and geographical location... What is popular in France, will not necessarily

be popular in Bangladesh...

This leaves us with a very small percentage of people, globally speaking, for whom

traditional classical music is of the utmost importance... Go to the street, find an

average person... Ask them what Mr. Haydn or Mr. Sibelius are best known for... Indeed,

ask them, what style of music pleases, uplifts and inspires them... I think you'll find

that most of your responses will rarely include traditional classical music...

Again, I say... Musical enjoyment is a very personal journey, and not all of us follow the

same path... You would be very hard pressed to find even one piece of music, of any

genre that could carry the title of "Truly GREAT music, music that pleases, Uplifts

and Inspires the the entire human race as a whole."

I respectfully step down, once again from the provervial soapbox... This time though,

I will follow your advice and stand defiently beside it...!!!

Cheers

Ben

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MoonShine    0

Hi Ben, quoting;

"There is a large percentage of the population that, if it may be said, could not care less about music. Their interest lies in other forms of entertainment, and if music as a whole should suddenly cease to exist, it would be no major burden for them..."

Was discussing this with friends only recently (not the first time and won't be the last lol), and after we all exchanged our views of what is (or isn't) a universally popular style of music, my suggestion that Movie Themes are something that we all take for granted and hugely popular, couldn't shut em up.

Got the "oh yeahhhh!!!, what about this theme, or that theme?" etc etc...

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vee    0

I agree whole heartedly with your answer. I find it refreshing in that it is well balanced. I think that you really hit the nail on the head. INDIVIDUAL DIFFERENCES. As people, we have the right to like what we like (as long as it does not violate the rights of others or the social contract.). We are free to like and listen to poorly composed music. Also, people have different needs to be fulfilled considering music. I have always thought that the writing and playing of music is a form of individual expression. Both the listener and composer meet through the mechanism of identification. Jove was right about that but it is not the only medium for drawing people together. I think that the biggest problem is not so much about the longevity of which genre of music. That is a matter that is beyond those who live in the present. I think the biggest problem lies is what is the becoming the standard for musicians. Kazuo Ishiguro, in his novel, The Remains of the Day, did a truly insightful discourse on this issue but instead of using musicians, he used butlers.

I guess that the bottom line reflects a basic law of behavior.... If it results in a positive consequence, then behavior will be repeated....if it sounds good, then people with listen and listen again. Rereading this again, I realized that I really rambled. Sorry, but I'm tired, long llong day.

Have fun,

Vee

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Jove d'Ark    0

Points accepted folks. I do tend to get a bit Pie in the sky with grandios ideologies. I have never said that people do not have the right to listen to what you are I might call poorly composed music and even though Mark Knopfler, or Bruce Springsteen or AC/DC and their ilk may draw crowds of hundreds of Thousands in every country they visit. to suggest that the entire human race can be drawn to common purpose by one style of music was probably not the best statement I have ever made. As you correctly state we are all individual with differing tastes and levels of maturity.

I think what I am trying to convey from my perspective is to me, music does not just encapsulte a Personal journey but an evolutionary one as well. For me the deeper the musical content that one listens to the deeper one begins to think and function in their own personal life and I Can see a time coming in the future where The Human race as a whole will come to the realisation the what I hold to be true is in fact true and that is, for me Music is for us on this planet the greatest expression of God and the sooner we understand just how deeply music reaches into and indeed affects the human brain and soul and our social patterns and behaviour the better off we will be as a race.

For me some music just ain't natural. I can honestly say now, that no matter how much I worshipped Hendrix as a kid, If it had not been for Mr.green I probably would never have gotten into him at all. Like too much of todays works it was Drug Music. And though I would not have the wisdom back then to realise it the explosion of recreational drug use has lead to a massive breakdown in social decorum and the music and lyrics being spawned today are reflecting this.

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Lcjones    8

hmmmm...

I try to imagine what it was like when the first hand struck a stick to a log... and then a second stick. A beat was born. Awesome. I dare say the drum solo from Ina Gada da Vida is not original work. ;)

**

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