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Tekker

New Computer for Recording Suggestions

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Tekker    1
True there. If I get some experimental time, I'll give that a shot.

Cool, let me know what you think of it. There is also a separate site for Nebula libraries, which contains an archive of all the effects that users have sampled as well as the official libraries.

Index :: nebula-programs.com

They used to have it setup that you had to be a registered user to get into the site, but now it's open to anyone. So you can look around and see what all is available for it. It's quite an impressive list of effects. I haven't even been able to use most of the recent stuff due to my computer issues. So I'm looking forward to getting back to Nebula myself.

Ah, Magix. I use their Movie Edit Pro for the timeline editing of my video lessons. I had no idea they took over Samplitude, cool. It really sounds like they were smart to take Samplitude from the ground up.

Yeah, Magix has had Samplitude since I started using it about 8 years ago. Samplitude was almost bought by Emagic (Logic) before they went to Mac and abandoned all of their PC customers.... Thank goodness they didn't get their grubby hands on Samplitude. :claping:

While HD inherently has Automatic Delay Compensation, LE does not!

Wow, I knew about that a long time ago and I'm really surprised they still haven't fixed that problem yet. :confused:

-tkr

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Tekker    1

I think I may go with Gigabyte, I just found a thread comparing the ASUS P5K SE to the Gigabyte P35-S3 board and it was almost unanimously in favor of the Gigabyte board.

ASUS P5K-SE vs Gigabyte P35-S3 - Core system - Desktops

The Gigabyte GA-EP45C-UD3R I think is the winner from the Gigabyte boards that I've found so far. I also found 4GB of Kingston HyperX DDR3 memory for $85.

So I think this may be my final specs.

Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz ($200)

Newegg.com - Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 Kentsfield 2.4GHz 2 x 4MB L2 Cache LGA 775 Quad-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops

GA-EP45C-UD3R ($130)

Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-EP45C-UD3R LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1625 (PC3 13000) Dual Channel ($85)

Newegg.com - Kingston HyperX 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1625 (PC3 13000) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model KHX13000AD3LLK2/4G - Desktop Memory

ZALMAN ZM500-HP 500W ($110)

Newegg.com - ZALMAN ZM500-HP 500W Continuous @ 45°C ATX12V V2.2 / EPS12V V2.91 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready Modular Active PFC Modular LED Heatpipe-Cooled SLI Power Supply - Power Supplies

PCI Express IDE Controller Card ($24)

Newegg.com - StarTech 1 Port PCI-Express IDE Adapter Card Model PEX2IDE - Add-On Cards

TOTAL: $549

Does that look pretty good?

-tkr

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solidwalnut    5
...Does that look pretty good?

That looks like a great list. What about drives?

I think especially because you're running a CPU intensive plug-in like Nebula that you should consider getting a CPU cooler such as

Zalman CNPS 9700

or the Zalman 9300AT

The stock heat sink that will come with the processor is adequate for normal office computing, but the cores will heat up under instensive use and need a better thermal solution to perform to the best of expectations.

I forget if thermal grease is supplied with the boxed processors. If so, that grease is adequate, but really good thermal grease is supplied with the Zalmans.

As is with the thermal solution for any processor, yearly or regular maintenance will keep you happy. Blowing the dust out of heat sink fins and fans is always the first step, but changing out the thermal grease is a great second step. That stuff dries up. Just remove the old grease from both surfaces and clean off the IHS (integrated heat spreader on top of the processor) and thermal solution with IPA (100% IPA is best, but < 100% is ok with care taken in drying). Heat is not your friend! There are some good tutorials on applying thermal grease at Zalman and other places on the web. Don't worry about it not having experience with it. Just make sure both surfaces are clean before hand, you have thorough coverage on the IHS and that you're sure that the solution is in place correctly and you'll be fine.

Ok, there's my speil! I'll get off of my soap box now.

This may have been a part of the problem with your AMD. They run a little warm. And it's not that they run so much warmer, it's that without a good thermal solution, they go into thermal runaway really easily.

Steve

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Tekker    1
What about drives?

I have drives already that I will be reusing.

I think especially because you're running a CPU intensive plug-in like Nebula that you should consider getting a CPU cooler such as

Zalman CNPS 9700

or the Zalman 9300AT

Good idea! Thanks. I'll probably go with the cheaper 9300AT.

I also made a few adjustments: This motherboard is supposedly better than my original one above, but supports DDR2 RAM (while the other supports DDR3). I did some searching and it seems that there isn't much performance difference between DDR2 and DDR3, so I think I'll go with the better mother board and DDR2 RAM.

GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P ($134)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx...N82E16813128358

Kingston HyperX T1 Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 ($60)

Newegg.com - Kingston HyperX T1 Series 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model KHX8500D2T1K2/4G - Desktop Memory

And finally, this power supply is newer and cheaper.

ZALMAN ZM500-RS 500 Watts

Newegg.com - ZALMAN ZM500-RS 500 Watts ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply - Power Supplies

-tkr

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skinnybloke    4

Phewww, that was a lot of reading

tkr Your research is excellent.

I would reconsider the DDR3, it will give a noticeable (huge) performance boost over DDR2.... if the chips are triplets IE: 3 X 1 G chips, or 3 X 2 G chips. I know that means more MoBo research :)

Solidwalnut's covered the CPU overheating issues for power users, and his maintainence regime should be annual. Bi annually for smokers! Nicotine sticks to the fan and fins.

Nothing can fix an under performing PSU......and it's a component that is usually the victim of false economy. Stick with the HP!

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Tekker    1
I would reconsider the DDR3, it will give a noticeable (huge) performance boost over DDR2.... if the chips are triplets IE: 3 X 1 G chips, or 3 X 2 G chips. I know that means more MoBo research :)

You're killing me here! :laugh:

Can you define "huge" performance boost? Are we talking monumental improvement and I'd kick myself for as long as I have the computer if I don't go with the DDR3..... :D

The original (lesser) motherboard supported DDR3 and had 6 memory slots, so would this board work?

Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-EP45C-UD3R LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

Would it be better to have the lesser quality motherboard and the DDR3 RAM or to have the higher quality motherboard and DDR2 RAM?

My gut is saying quality over speed (this is already going to be way, WAY faster than my last PC :D), but I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

Nothing can fix an under performing PSU......and it's a component that is usually the victim of false economy. Stick with the HP!

So, the HP is better than the RS? Ok, HP it is. The RS appears to be very new, there were no reviews for it at all on newegg.

-tkr

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Tekker    1

The plot thickens..... LOL

Someone on the Samplitude forum put together an i7 system for not much more than mine. I can't seem to find the processor for $200 like he did though, the cheapest I can find it for is $280, which brings the price up quite a bit.

After changing the RAM (he had 6GB of Crucial memory) here are the specs:

Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz ($280)

Newegg.com - Intel Core i7 920 Nehalem 2.66GHz 4 x 256KB L2 Cache 8MB L3 Cache LGA 1366 130W Quad-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops

Foxconn FlamingBlade GTI LGA ($175)

Newegg.com - Foxconn FlamingBlade GTI LGA 1366 Intel X58 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

Kingston HyperX 3GB (3 x 1GB) DDR3 1375 (PC3 11000) Triple Channel ($84)

Newegg.com - Kingston HyperX 3GB (3 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1375 (PC3 11000) Triple Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model KHX11000D3LLK3/3GX - Desktop Memory

ZALMAN ZM500-HP 500W ($110)

Newegg.com - ZALMAN ZM500-HP 500W Continuous @ 45°C ATX12V V2.2 / EPS12V V2.91 SLI Certified CrossFire Ready Modular Active PFC Modular LED Heatpipe-Cooled SLI Power Supply - Power Supplies

ZALMAN CNPS 9300AT SuperFlo CPU Cooler ($35)

Newegg.com - ZALMAN CNPS 9300AT SuperFlo CPU Cooler - CPU Fans & Heatsinks

PCI Express IDE Controller Card ($24)

Newegg.com - StarTech 1 Port PCI-Express IDE Adapter Card Model PEX2IDE - Add-On Cards

TOTAL: $708

If I can find that processor for $200, that would bring me down to $628, which is a lot better.

Any thoughts on the Foxconn motherboard? Is that a good one?

Thanks again,

-tkr

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skinnybloke    4

That's a great system tkr! I haven't had any experience at all with Foxconn boards...so I can't comment on them, sorry.

My gut is saying quality over speed (this is already going to be way, WAY faster than my last PC :D), but I'd like to hear your opinion on it.

-tkr

Always..always...always...always..always...always...always..always...always...:brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: buy the best quality you can afford :yes: :yes:

The RS appears to be very new, there were no reviews for it at all on newegg.

-tkr

You cannot make a cheaper similar product, without sacrificing the component quality.

At best.... if a PSU isn't delivering it's rated outputs, your system falls over (usually when you need it most).

At worst... the unit fails, feed voltage fries everything.

If you can get the CPU cheaper, you've nailed it!

I would like to get your thoughts on the Foxconn...should you go with it.

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Tekker    1
That's a great system tkr! I haven't had any experience at all with Foxconn boards...so I can't comment on them, sorry.

Always..always...always...always..always...always...always..always...always...:brickwall: :brickwall: :brickwall: buy the best quality you can afford :yes: :yes:

This is what's worrying me about the Foxconn, I'd never heard of them either but the stuff I found said that Gigabyte is superior... Which I already expected. lol

Would you say it's worth going with the better processor and lesser motherboard or better processor and slower (but similar quality) processor? The person who posted it on the Samplitude forum said his system has been stable thus far.

If you can get the CPU cheaper, you've nailed it!

I don't think I'm going to find that processor any cheaper. He said he got his from microcenter and they don't seem to have it anymore. Newegg and Amazon both have it for $280, so I think that's as good as I'm going to get for that processor.

I would like to get your thoughts on the Foxconn...should you go with it.

Here are the comments on it from the Samplitude user who recommended it:

"If you're not set on CPU, the new rig in my signature has been 100% stable thus far. I'd probably do the next step up mobo to get eSATA and 1394 if I had it to do again, but the Foxconn brand is working very well - less buggy than my older Gigabyte and Asus boards. "

"As you can see it was pretty inexpensive. You could probably shave a few $ off the memory price and get a more mainstream grade, but if you have the $ get the good stuff for stability's sake. The huge savings was the Sapphire video card. Absolutely fantastic for DAW and video editing, but since it's low end for hard core gaming and they market it as a gaming card, it has the dirt cheap price... It doesn't have the business software goodies my Matrox does, but other than that it blows the Matrox away and does have a nice utility suite (the standard ATI package). Based on it's performance in DAW and video editing, I'd have felt it worth $235 no problem.

I'm really liking this rig, I was not so impressed with the Foxconn mobo at first since it can't get the full 1600 out of the memory at the overclock I'm using elsewhere on it (everything has to be done in ratios) but apparently all boards have the same constraint. So given the nice build quality and lack of bugs (it's a stripped board but what's there works correctly) I'm really liking it now. 100% stable, runs XP32 and Vista 64 great, even the much maligned EMU 1820m has been 100% stable at extremely low latencies.

For what it's worth, the Vista benchmarking has cpu at 5.9, video at 5.6, HD at 5.2, all pretty good numbers."

-tkr

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skinnybloke    4

Would you say it's worth going with the better processor and lesser motherboard or better processor <<<<I assume you mean M/B there> and slower (but similar quality) processor?

Intel chips rarely fail.....MoBo's regularly fail. So for reliability I would lean towards the better M/B.

With the i5 imminent, the i7 price will fall, it's just a matter of how patient (and long suffering) you can be.

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Tekker    1

Yes, I did mean mobo there.

You just confirmed my gut feeling on going with the better mobo. Plus $700 for the i7 system is pushing it as I was originally hoping to stay under under $600.

Thanks, I think I have made my decision.

With the i5 imminent, the i7 price will fall, it's just a matter of how patient (and long suffering) you can be.

I think you already know the answer to that one! :D Remember how long we spent trying to fix my last PC? And I wasn't able to do ANY recording at all during that time. So I'm pretty sure I manage to live with a "slower" quad core system for a while. :laugh:

Thanks again!

-tkr

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carol m    64
Remember how long we spent trying to fix my last PC? And I wasn't able to do ANY recording at all during that time.

-tkr

I know exactly what you mean Tekker - for the last year and a half I've spent more time battling with my pc than almost anything else. It's been blue-screen free for about 10 days this time and I've actually been thinking/doing something else while online instead of researching, asking and trying to fix stuff.

But....now I'll be all alone after you get your trouble-free pc. :crying2:

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Tekker    1
But....now I'll be all alone after you get your trouble-free pc. :crying2:

It maybe time to do what I did, trash the old system and go with some new parts.

The Intel dual cores are pretty inexpensive.

Intel Core2 Duo E7500 Wolfdale 2.93GHz ($120)

Newegg.com - Intel Core2 Duo E7500 Wolfdale 2.93GHz 3MB L2 Cache LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor - Processors - Desktops

Combined with the same motherboard I'm getting:

GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P ($135)

Newegg.com - GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard - Intel Motherboards

Total $255 if you have DDR2 memory in your current system as you could use it in the new one. :winkthumb:

-tkr

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carol m    64

So long as it behaves I'll stick with it - still ok after about 11 days now....:winkthumb: I've even been playing guitar again - amazing. Good luck with yours.

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knight46    2

This has been an absolutely remarkable thread. There is more information supplied by Skinnybloke and Solidwalnut than my poor little mind can handle in one sitting.

Tekker be sure to let us know how this comes out.

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Tekker    1
So long as it behaves I'll stick with it - still ok after about 11 days now....:winkthumb: I've even been playing guitar again - amazing. Good luck with yours.

Wow, that is amazing! I hope it keeps up. :yes:

This has been an absolutely remarkable thread. There is more information supplied by Skinnybloke and Solidwalnut than my poor little mind can handle in one sitting.

I agree completely! Another wealth of information is my original computer problem thread, lots of info for PC troubleshooting.

http://www.guitarforbeginners.com/forum/home-studio/21084-computer-gurus-needed-sound-card-problem/

When I have time I'd like to condense all the information in that thread into a single post as a reference.

Tekker be sure to let us know how this comes out.

Definitely. Hopefully there will be some recordings to illustrate how well it works. :winkthumb:

-tkr

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carol m    64
Wow, that is amazing! I hope it keeps up. :yes:

All I have to do now is figure out how to get back my Windows Help and Support and my System Restore (a casualty of my last stouch with it) and it'll be as good as new - hold on, it was already #^@& when it was new... :laughingg:

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solidwalnut    5
Ok, I've got one last change to my system specs, I was recommended a Thermalright CPU cooler. This is a cheaper model than the one he recommended, but for my needs should do the job (I won't be pushing my system as hard as he does).

Thermalright HR-01 Plus 6-Heatpipe CPU Cooler ($55)

-tkr

Tekker--

I would think more about this before you buy it. Heat pipe technology can work very well, however the most important thing about heat pipes is that they must be sealed properly in order to work well. If there's a leak, they will underperform and eventually fail. Unfortunately, with most off-brands like this the assembly is usually a guy in a garage and the quality from one to the next is suspect. I could be totally off base about this name brand, and it may be fine. But for my dollar, this purchase would be a roll of the dice.

Here's an excerpt from a technical article on water-based aluminum heatpipes (I believe water is going to be the working fluid in this one...):

Aluminum/water heat pipes are prone to corrosion induced failure by non-condensable, hydrogen gas generation, which makes heat pipes fail to function...

You can't beat the industry standard in Zalman. They are a quality outfit with consistent quality product. They don't offer heat pipe technology as far as I know, and I can tell you that there's no advantage about using heat pipe, passive, technology over active, fan cooled, technology. Just more that can go wrong. The fact that you have a fan and that can generate noise is a concern, but most Zalman product is very quiet as far as I know.

Just .02 from a thermal guy...

Steve

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Tekker    1

I don't think that one uses water (there's nothing in the description that mentions using water).

From what I can tell the pipes are just used to transfer heat up to the fins. Here's the description:

The Thermalright HR-01 Plus 6-Heatpipe CPU Cooler is a passive cooler designed for fan-less operation - a must for silent computing enthusiasts! The fin design features proprietary through holes that increase the ventilation efficiency. Six high-performance heatpipes wick heat away from the processor core and spread the heat evenly among the aluminum fins. For enhanced thermal transfer, the aluminum fans are soldered directly to the nickel-plated, copper base. Designed for the latest processors, the HR-01 Plus uses a multi-platform mounting adapter to attach to both Socket 775 and Socket AM2.

If there's no liquid inside, do you still think it's a risky buy?

-tkr

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skinnybloke    4

I read your post last night Tekker and did a little research this morning, I have to say I,m not a fan :) :) .

If your case is a tower case, the cooler will be mounted horizontal, I just can't see that as being an efficient way to dissipate heat ( even if the unit was vertical I'd still be suspect). To me that copper base is always going to be hot, and CPU's hate heat.

The other thing is the physical size of it....over 6 inches high (will it fit?) and 600 grams!

Skinny

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solidwalnut    5
I don't think that one uses water (there's nothing in the description that mentions using water).

From what I can tell the pipes are just used to transfer heat up to the fins. Here's the description:

The Thermalright HR-01 Plus 6-Heatpipe CPU Cooler is a passive cooler designed for fan-less operation - a must for silent computing enthusiasts! The fin design features proprietary through holes that increase the ventilation efficiency. Six high-performance heatpipes wick heat away from the processor core and spread the heat evenly among the aluminum fins. For enhanced thermal transfer, the aluminum fans are soldered directly to the nickel-plated, copper base. Designed for the latest processors, the HR-01 Plus uses a multi-platform mounting adapter to attach to both Socket 775 and Socket AM2.

If there's no liquid inside, do you still think it's a risky buy?

Yes, because there IS some form of liquid inside, and no doubt it is water based. Liquid is the medium for the heat transfer; that is how heat pipes work.

What happens is that heat pipes are a closed system (that's why I say that the quality of their sealing is important). Heat pipes consist of a metal tube or cylinder structure filled with a wicking structure and liquid. As the liquid heats up, it comes to a boil. As it boils, it turns the liquid into vapor. The vapor is wicked away to the outer edges and is cooled by the metal enclosure and it's boundary conditions or ambient temp (and in this case is enhanced by the having the enclosure attached to the metal fins). The vapor condensates and returns to liquid form to complete the cycle.

There is an inherent problem that has been unresolved for decades (heat pipe technology has been around for a long time) in regard to the corrosion issue mention in regard to water based alumiminum heat pipes. That alone makes me wonder about this product. Not that this product may not be successful, and not that others have purchased it and it has worked well for them, it's the fact that there's no telling for how long the product will be effective.

Couple that with the possible quality issue question of proper sealing. The purchase just would not make sense for my dollar when there are other solutions out there that are just as effective and, more than likely, reliable for the same investment.

If you do decide to go this route, I recommend routinely monitoring microprocessor temp's so you'll have an idea of whether the heat pipe solution is working or it's failing.

But I see you posted and you're thinking about the Zalman again. Yes, that's cool!! But I want to read the thread on the PC Perspective forum, and I'll let you know what I think!

Take care,

Steve

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Tekker    1
But I want to read the thread on the PC Perspective forum, and I'll let you know what I think!

That would be great. Thanks a lot!

-tkr

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solidwalnut    5
Ok, the Zalman is quite a bit cheaper, so I'm cool with that (pun intended :D).

If you're interested, here is my thread on the PC Perspective forum where I was recommended the Thermalright. His name is BWM.

Which mobo for Intel Q6600 Quad? - PC Perspective Forums

Excellent thread you have going on there, Tekker. It sounds like BWM has some excellent experience and is a fan (pun intended!) of the Thermalright heat pipe products. They look like they're reliable.

Just me, but what I don't like is the fact that the product is so tall. The question of 'does it fit' just sounds like alot of extra homework. But BWM doesn't seem to mind, so I suppose there's a solution there.

The other thing I don't like about it is now you need to run a fan on this product. Heat pipes are really a passive thermal solution and now it's become actively enhanced or it won't work. Not a huge issue, really, but there is a second bit of research pain involved.

Do Zalman's have proprietary fans? Sure, but I'll take their proprietary design over the two pains listed above plus the known reliability of the product. I'll also take the known customer support features.

And lastly, I'd choose Zalman due to the fact that the product is pure copper. Copper is second only to silver as the best metal electrical/thermal conductor. (In cases where copper is nickel plated, such as the microprocessor's IHS, the nickel plating is used to prevent oxidation of the copper IHS). Aluminum is a pretty good conductor, but is only 2/3rds of the conductor that copper is.

Anyway, it much of it comes down to person pref. Viva personal pref's!!

Steve

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