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e sharp ?????


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#1 OFFLINE   hb

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 02:33 PM

Just starting to play the guitar and could read a little sheet music as a kid. I am confused as to what to play when encountering an " e sharp" . Is there really such a thing? I thought the next note from e was a f. Does not the same thing apply to an A and B note?????
Thanks,
hb

#2 ONLINE   6string

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 02:41 PM

yes E# and F are the same thing
Deja Moo: The feeling that you’ve heard this bull before.

#3 OFFLINE   Kirk Lorange

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 06:31 PM

As far as I know, calling that note E# only applies when its in a key like A# where using the usual F conflicts with standard notation conventions ... but not being well versed at all in standard notation, don't take this as being correct. Maybe Neilsonite can help here ... Neilsonite?????

#4 OFFLINE   stratwrassler

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Posted 22 March 2006 - 06:41 PM

The notes E#, Fb, Cb and B# only exist in theory and sheetmusic as far as the guitar goes. E# and Fb and fingered in the same fret; Cb and B# are fingered at the same fret.

My talented fretless instrument playing friends tell me that when playing classical music in an orchestra, they differ slightly in pitch depending on which key they are in and whether ascending or descending a scale, but just thinking about that makes my head spin. :blink:

Peace,
Rico

#5 OFFLINE   Donovan

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 07:17 AM

Yes, I think we're on the right track here. The E# is a logical result from using the Circle of Fifths as means to establish a key. Notes that are notated differently but would actually "sound" the same (not sure about this fretless stuff stratwrassler mentioned) are called enharmonic.

*** Little note to Stratwrassler: Cb and B# are NOT enharmonic. Cb would be enharmonic to B, while B# would be enharmonic to C. Same holds true for E# and Fb. ***

You can look at this basic Major Key explanation here to see the same key signatures as displayed in the Circle of Fifths. Note that the way they are arranged follows the Circle of Fifths and the number of sharps/flats used. There is a certain pattern in which the sharps and flats are assigned. This "trick" can be a great help in dealing with standard notation (and perhaps key signature theory in general)

As you can see, E# is represented in the key of F#, which is actually a more common key than you would think. Strictly speaking, every key further clockwise along the circle would contain E# as well, so Kirk was actually right when he mentioned the key of A# (Note that it's more common enharmonic counterpart is the key of Bb). However, if you extrapolate a little and think about it, the key of A# would contain 10 sharps(!) and that means that certain notes will receive a ## (also notated as X). I think I should stop here, lest I confuse you more than I'd enlighten you :rolleyes:

Hope I've shed some light on the subject. Good luck! :)

#6 OFFLINE   danthelion

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 02:48 PM

hb said:

Just starting to play the guitar and could read a little sheet music as a kid. I am confused as to what to play when encountering an " e sharp" . Is there really such a thing? I thought the next note from e was a f. Does not the same thing apply to an A and B note?????
Thanks,
hb

Put simply the answer is Yes! :) (E# = F; Fb = E; B# = C; Cb = B)

#7 OFFLINE   delondcosta27

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 04:00 PM

e# and b# are there yes yes...............but not for any important reason really.......their just there to make a scale diatonic(meaning tht the scale will have one of each note like C D E F G A B C and not C C# D E F F#...blah blah...........)so just take E# as a F and move on wit it!!!
im just an average teen with nothing to do....(but play guitar that is)

curiosity got the cat promoted to lion!!

#8 OFFLINE   Donovan

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 06:55 PM

The generally short responses here are a great indication I've bored some of you with that delightful post of mine :lol: Oh well, if I ever get to give some lectures to students a few years from now, I better get used to this :rolleyes:

For practical application: Yes, Cb=B , B#=C , Fb=E , E#=F :rolleyes:

*Fails to keep himself from whispering enharmonic one more time* :P

#9 OFFLINE   stratwrassler

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 07:16 PM

Donovan said:

*** Little note to Stratwrassler: Cb and B# are NOT enharmonic. Cb would be enharmonic to B, while B# would be enharmonic to C. Same holds true for E# and Fb. ***

Doh... :oops: that's what I meant. E is fingered the same as Fb, E# is fingered the same as F, Cb is fingered the same as B, B# is fingered the same as C.

I don't know if I've ever played in a key with an E#, Fb, Cb, or B# note in it. I've read some sheet-music with those notes as accidentals, but not part of the key. I don't do alot of reading music anyway.

Peace,
Rico

#10 OFFLINE   Donovan

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Posted 23 March 2006 - 07:29 PM

I did encounter some pieces in F# (which contains an E#), although I can't recall any of their names. I can tell you, 6 sharps at the start of a piece of music really looks like OVERKILL :P That is, if you're accustomed to standard notation anyway ;) Great advantage to playing in "weird" keys on the guitar is you just slide around your patterns along the neck, or better, use a capo and you're good to go.

#11 OFFLINE   hb

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Posted 26 March 2006 - 11:21 PM

Thanks for all your replies. I have encounter these sharps and flats in some simple country music and it threw me for loops trying to find these on the guitar after playing some piano but now I know what you're talking about. Geeesh....is it not difficult enough....let's throw in some notes that don't even exist!!!
hb

#12 OFFLINE   Donovan

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:13 PM

Well, I'm glad there's actually a bit of logic to it, but I agree that it can really confuse anyone who didn't read that one thing that put it all together in their minds. And very true that pianists look at scales and the like very differently, for I used to be one myself (still play now and then). Happy we were able to remove this little obstacle, hope you have fun playing the things you do now :)

#13 OFFLINE   john e sharp

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 03:59 PM

thats where i get my name from john e sharp johnnie sharp get it

#14 OFFLINE   USGold

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 07:50 PM

Someone putting this on right? Last time i looked at the piano (yesterday) there was no blck key between E and F-same for B and C--those notes are naturals or flats only

#15 ONLINE   6string

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 09:33 PM

USGold said:

Someone putting this on right? Last time i looked at the piano (yesterday) there was no blck key between E and F-same for B and C--those notes are naturals or flats only


No its for real.
If you sharpen E it becomes F, if you flatten F it becomes E
If you sharpen B it becomes C, if you flatten C it becomes B
Deja Moo: The feeling that you’ve heard this bull before.

#16 OFFLINE   allthumbs

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Posted 30 March 2006 - 10:19 PM

6string said:

No its for real.
If you sharpen E it becomes F, if you flatten F it becomes E
If you sharpen B it becomes C, if you flatten C it becomes B
There is only a 1/2 tone between B and C. Same thing with E and F. It is just the way it works mathematically. All the other notes have whole tones between them.

#17 OFFLINE   scotty_b

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Posted 26 April 2006 - 06:01 PM

HI guys
Typically on the guitar we see E# as F, and the reasons why are related back to the notion of equal-tempered tuning and the efforts of a Mr Bach in producing a series of works entitled 'The Well Tempered Clavier'. I won't bore you with the details now, but when we think of E# and F we are thinking of enharmonic notes.
When we play on other instruments, or play slide guitar, the compensation we need to allow for tuning is more noticeable. On the piano we are fixed with the pitch we can play, but on other instruments we can manipulate the note to bring it closer to being 'in tune'.
The mathematical proposition of 12 tones means that tuning is compromised to allow us to modulate bewteen keys (see Bach as I mentioned earlier).
I play sax as well as guitar, and tuning is compensated by the embouchre (how the mouthpiece is held by the mouth) constantly to work with the inconsistencies of the tuning system we use.

#18 OFFLINE   tinsmith

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:12 PM

I believe in "Meantone"....kinda left over from the Renaissance....there was actually an E# & a B#.
I learned this from a crazy Berkley instructor who had a band named Meantone.......crazy guy....sang with a gas mask, played a fretless guitar with two slides.....
http://en.wikipedia....one_temperament





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