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Finding Songs In Public Domain


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#1 OFFLINE   Live Stone

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 12:57 PM

I can imagine that sometimes it is hard for Kirk to find Songs in the public domain to work with. I really don't know. I have two songs that may be that I dearly love. One is Georgia. Probably most people associate that song with Ray Charles and Willie Nelson, however it was written by Hogie Carmichal in 1929. The other also written by the same was Stardust around that same period. These songs are classics and very beautiful.

Don't know if I posted this in the right place. It might be a help to Kirk if we did some research for him as I know he is very busy man. It is a shame that some of the wonderful tunes he had posted had to be taken off. But that is show business.

I have been so thrilled to have found Kirk and the gang. I don't even mess with other sites now that I have him as my mentor.

I have always played riffs and scales in an improve mode which are very cool at times but get a little boring and start to sound the same after a while. I am a member of the PT forum and loving this approach to improv and music theory. I recommend to anyone that when you have gotten past the beginner stage to try Kirks PT. It has changed my outlook on the way to solo and approach melody.

I love the fingerstyle lessons. Never played with my fingers before. Always used a pick. Never hardly ever picked up my accoustic, but now it seems to always be in my hands. Still love my American Tele Nashville deluxe B- Bender. She is my baby, of course next to my wife and two litte dogs, but it is one fine guitar. My accoustic is a not so expensive Ibanez. Body is ash and mahagony neck. I had it set up by a pro and it plays like a dream and has a nice warm sound.

One day when I figure out how I will post picture of my guitars on the appropriate forum. I enjoy looking at others equipment to.

Just want to compliment all the forum members and admin. Some of the nicest people to associate with.

Keep on strummin

Danny

#2 OFFLINE   starsailor

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:13 PM

Beautifully written Danny, good songs, I play some Woody Guthrie songs, I think his are in the Public Domain, will have to look up some more, there are lots out there, it was ashame that some songs had to be removed but it was to risky for the site in the present climate, this is a good forum and everyone is willing to help people out and are understanding as well. If you want to post pictures go to the Manage Atachments section which is in orange towards the bottom of the page when you do a post, this will bring up a box which will ask you to choose what you want to add from your own files and shows a list of acceptable document types, look forward to seeing your guitars, hope that is helpful and hope you're well, good reading your post:winkthumb:

Regards

Chris
You don't stop laughing when you grow old; you grow old when you stop laughing.

#3 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 05:16 PM

Live Stone said:

I can imagine that sometimes it is hard for Kirk to find Songs in the public domain to work with. I really don't know. I have two songs that may be that I dearly love. One is Georgia. Probably most people associate that song with Ray Charles and Willie Nelson, however it was written by Hogie Carmichal in 1929. The other also written by the same was Stardust around that same period. These songs are classics and very beautiful.

Don't know if I posted this in the right place. It might be a help to Kirk if we did some research for him as I know he is very busy man. It is a shame that some of the wonderful tunes he had posted had to be taken off. But that is show business.

I have been so thrilled to have found Kirk and the gang. I don't even mess with other sites now that I have him as my mentor.

I have always played riffs and scales in an improve mode which are very cool at times but get a little boring and start to sound the same after a while. I am a member of the PT forum and loving this approach to improv and music theory. I recommend to anyone that when you have gotten past the beginner stage to try Kirks PT. It has changed my outlook on the way to solo and approach melody.

I love the fingerstyle lessons. Never played with my fingers before. Always used a pick. Never hardly ever picked up my accoustic, but now it seems to always be in my hands. Still love my American Tele Nashville deluxe B- Bender. She is my baby, of course next to my wife and two litte dogs, but it is one fine guitar. My accoustic is a not so expensive Ibanez. Body is ash and mahagony neck. I had it set up by a pro and it plays like a dream and has a nice warm sound.

One day when I figure out how I will post picture of my guitars on the appropriate forum. I enjoy looking at others equipment to.

Just want to compliment all the forum members and admin. Some of the nicest people to associate with.

Keep on strummin

Danny

Danny--

Glad to have you around. I'm looking forward to seeing your gear.

One of the best sites on the 'net I've found for PD info is, you guessed it, Public Domain Music. It's got a great list of songs and some wonderful info on the subject.

All the best today,

Steve
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty


#4 OFFLINE   eddiez152

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 05:57 PM

Live Stone,
Nice to have you here and Welcome.

Steve,
Is like everything listed in PDM for use. Or do we stlll have to be careful ?
Nothin sweeter than the sound of music comin out of a 6 string box - EZ me Music / ASCAP "Music is a social act of communication, a gesture of friendship,the strongest there is"-Malcolm Arnold

#5 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 07:11 PM

eddiez152 said:

Live Stone,
Nice to have you here and Welcome.

Steve,
Is like everything listed in PDM for use. Or do we stlll have to be careful ?

Songs that are in the PD are available for use by anyone. But where to be careful is that there are artists who have recorded PD songs. To reproduce that recording or arrangement would be a copyright infringement: to reproduce the recording would be a statutory mechanical infringment just like distributing a production that is the IP of someone else. To reproduce the arrangement would be an infringment against the author or the holder of the orginal copyright for the arrangment.

Just for an example, if anyone decided to distribute Kirk's arrangment of Oh Susanna on video and/or in tab, they would be infringing on Kirk's right to distribute them, since he is the one who created them (we won't even get into the fact that Kirk would most likely be thrilled that it was being seen everywhere, but the fact remains that it is his IP and his right to make money from the distribution). If you learned his rendition of Oh Susanna note-for-note and then recorded and distributed that, he could take you to court (he's not going to most likely, but you get the idea!).

Steve
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty


#6 OFFLINE   eddiez152

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 08:50 PM

Thanks Steve,
I understand it now. Doing lets say Oh Susanna perhaps in different tempo or another key with somewhat of a different arrangment would be acceptable.
Nothin sweeter than the sound of music comin out of a 6 string box - EZ me Music / ASCAP "Music is a social act of communication, a gesture of friendship,the strongest there is"-Malcolm Arnold

#7 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 11:41 PM

eddiez152 said:

Thanks Steve,
I understand it now. Doing lets say Oh Susanna perhaps in different tempo or another key with somewhat of a different arrangment would be acceptable.

Yeah, that's basically it. Coming up with your own arrangement or just somewhat repeating the traditional is the way to go.
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty


#8 ONLINE   mattz196

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 12:18 AM

Steve, If someone does choose to record and publish another artists work do they negotiate an agreement with the original creator directly or is there like a set fee that is paid to an orgaisation that represents artists ?
Can a copyright holder refuse someone permision to record their work?
Matt
What's Rangoon to you is Grafton to me

#9 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 01:30 AM

mattz196 said:

Steve, If someone does choose to record and publish another artists work do they negotiate an agreement with the original creator directly or is there like a set fee that is paid to an orgaisation that represents artists ?
Can a copyright holder refuse someone permision to record their work?
Matt

Matt--

Since I live in the US, I'm familar with US law and not Australian, so some things may differ. Often times, though, songs that a person hears or becomes popular often does in alot of the western world and so the general rule there is that the laws are followed according to the country of origin.

What happens in the US is that if a person wants to record another person's work, they need to contact the owner of the rights of the song. Usually with popular music, the orignal creator(s) have signed those rights away to a publishing company. So you're looking for a publishing company. You can usually figure this out by looking at liner notes from the CD jacket. But you can also find out on line from the databases of the performance rights agencies (in the US they're ASCAP, BMI and SESAC, in Aus it's APRA, apra.com.au).

Fees are negotiated with the publishing company or the holder of rights. There is a set MINIMUM that is required to be paid, and that amount, for 2007, is here as taken from the Harry Fox agency (harryfox.com, and I might add that you'll find everything you wanted to know about this subject, and everything you wish you hadn't asked!):

[INDENT]As of January 1, 2006 the statutory mechanical rate is as follows:

9.10 Cents for songs 5 minutes or less
or
1.75 Cents per minute or fraction thereof over 5 minutes.

For example:
5:01 to 6:00 = $.105 (6 x $.0175 = $.105)
6:01 to 7:00 = $.1225 (7 x $.0175 = $.1225)
7:01 to 8:00 = $.14 (8 x $.0175 = $.14)

This rate will remain in effect until the next schedule of mechanical licensing rates is determined. [/INDENT]

This means that the holder of rights charges you this as a minimum, and then can add any other fees they want. Usually the breakdown begins by the number of times you wish to duplicate the song.

Also, you can most times just pay these fees and receive a license online at harryfox.com. These are known as mechanical licenses.

The basis of the US law states that the creator, or the holder of rights, owns the exclusive right to first record and distribute their work. Once they do so, however, anyone has the right to obtain a compulsory mechanical license and record and distribute the work once the miminum fees have been paid.

An owner of rights can indeed refuse another. But unless the other party is a notorious thief of some kind, they're not going to be refused. Hey, it's money in the door.

Steve
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty


#10 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 01:38 AM

WitchyWoman said:

Great site, BUT it constantly said in PD in the US, how does this stand worldwide, europe etc?

Well, here's the breakdown of the relationship between the US copyright laws and international copyright law:

[INDENT]International Copyright Law
The Berne Convention is an international treaty standardizing copyright protection since 1886. In 1994 a "General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT)" was signed by 117 countries, and the World Trade Organization (WTO) was created in Geneva, Switzerland, to enforce compliance with the agreement. GATT includes a section covering copyrights called the "Trade-Related Aspects of Intellectual Property" (TRIPS) U.S. law was amended to be essentially consistent with GATT by the "Uruguay Round Agreements Act" (URAA) in 1994 and the "Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act" in 1998. Despite GATT, copyright protection varies greatly from country to country, and extreme caution must be exercised on all international usage of any intellectual property.

Rule of Thumb for Public Domain Music
Works published in the United States with a copyright date of 1922 or earlier are in the public domain in the United States.
Copyright protection outside the USA is determined by the laws of the country where you wish to use a work. Copyright protection may be 95 years from publication date, 50 to 70 years after the death of the last surviving author, or other criteria depending on where the work was first published and how the work is to be used. [/INDENT]

I hope that's not too much gobbledy speak. Basically the deal is

[INDENT]extreme caution must be exercised on all international usage of any intellectual property.[/INDENT]
There are cross-licensing agreements for songs all over the world all the time. Any rules can be forged as long as they're agreed upon by both parties. The rule of thumb is to follow the copyright laws of the tune of the country of origin.

Steve
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty


#11 ONLINE   mattz196

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 02:10 AM

Thanks Steve for your very imformative replies, It is an interesting subject to read about when the "legalise" has stripped away to make it understandable .
What's Rangoon to you is Grafton to me

#12 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 07:26 AM

mattz196 said:

Thanks Steve for your very imformative replies, It is an interesting subject to read about when the "legalise" has stripped away to make it understandable .

You're welcome, Matt. It's a passion of mine. When I decided to finally record my stuff, I also decided I was going to learn all I could about this crazy copyright world.

Steve
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty


#13 OFFLINE   derek6107

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 09:48 AM

This is a great thread. Very informative - well done Steve.

#14 OFFLINE   scorpius

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 10:25 AM

Lots of info. Thanks.
w@v

#15 OFFLINE   justinthyme

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 06:03 PM

Thanks for taking the time to explain that Steve - thought-provoking stuff.
Ian

#16 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 08:55 PM

Thanks all, and you're welcome for the info.
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty


#17 ONLINE   mattz196

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 10:06 PM

I would imagine there are a few copyright lawyers who aspire to be great guitar players, but not too many great guitarists who aspire to be lawyers.;)
What's Rangoon to you is Grafton to me

#18 OFFLINE   solidwalnut

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Posted 26 July 2007 - 11:00 PM

mattz196 said:

I would imagine there are a few copyright lawyers who aspire to be great guitar players, but not too many great guitarists who aspire to be lawyers.;)

That's the truth. It's the old adage of, 'hey, man, I just wanna play. I don't care about all that other stuff!' Well, times have changed a bit. But it still holds true, I know. These days a musician aspiring to deal with the industry or is trying to get signed would do well to get on board with this bit of knowledge:winkthumb:
Steve Cass
Solid Walnut Music/ASCAP

Becoming a great guitarist has less to do with fancy moves than it does becoming a master of the basics and learning musicianship.
It's not what you can't do. It's how you play what you already know.


View my lessons here at GfB&B


"Rhythm guitar is a trip that alot of people miss" -- Tom Petty






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