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justinthyme

Audacity recording problem

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Tekker    1
I hope I wasn't confusing the situation to much.

Not at all. :) In fact I'm curious how you got yours to work.... (see below)

On my set up I take the audio out from the PC{via external sound card} send it thru "line " in jack on the mixer{one of six channels} and I use the "rec-out" rca output to send the signal back thru the sound card to the PC.

How do you avoid running into justinthyme's problem? It seems like the computer's output coming into the mixer would be sent back to the computer's input through the mixer's rec-out output, thus creating a loop and getting the same results.

Maybe I have mine set-up in a not so "best way to...?" and I would welcome any comments you can offer....thanks T

As long as it works, then it's good. All of the analog outputs should sound the same, so what really matters is if you can get it configured the way you want it.

With justinthyme's mixer he has the option of USB or analog outputs, and these could sound very different in addition to the soundcard being used with the analog outputs. So here it would be a good idea to try each method and see which one works the best.

It seems from what you've said that there is no way to do this without the panning workaround, which is disappointing given the 'sophisticated' appearance of the machine. But that's OK - at least it works!

Yeah, most small and inexpensive mixers aren't setup properly for this kind of routing.

There needs to be a way to choose where each track goes so that you can send the guitar on the mixer's inputs to the computer but not directly to the mixer output. Since the computer output will also contain your guitar signal, bringing the computer output back into the mixer the two guitar signals will be combined together (thus making it louder). Then the computer output will be on the mixer input and thus be sent right back to the computer and recorded. So now your backing track will be recorded in addition to your guitar signals.

This whole process keeps repeating since it is in a never ending loop.

What you want to be able to do though is:

Guitar --> Mixer In A --> Mixer Out A --> Computer In -->

Computer Out (guitar and backing track mix) --> Mixer In B --> Mixer Out B --> Speakers

This way you hear your guitar and backing track only "once" with no loops. This requires two outputs and two inputs on your mixer and the ability to choose which output each track uses without being sent to the other output. If the signal is ever sent to both Mixer Out A and B at the same time, you will get a loop.

If you want stereo signals then you have to have a total of 4 inputs and 4 outputs (Inputs and Outputs A and B would each have a left and right channel).

Your mixer has several separate outputs and inputs, but you just have no way of sending tracks to only one output at a time (without going to the others).

This is why panning the tracks works, because for mono signal you only need two inputs (Right and Left) and two outputs (Right and Left). Panning each channel allows you to separately send these two tracks to separate outputs without affecting the other one. However, on your mixer there's no way to do this with 4 In/Out.

I hope that made sense, I was kind of thinking quickly and not really proofing reading it (I need to get to bed, lol!). If it's not clear, I can make up some diagrams tomorrow to help illustrate.

-tkr

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Not at all. :) In fact I'm curious how you got yours to work.... (see below)

How do you avoid running into justinthyme's problem? It seems like the computer's output coming into the mixer would be sent back to the computer's input through the mixer's rec-out output, thus creating a loop and getting the same results.-tkr

Thanks again Tekker for taking the time:winkthumb:

I probably should have went into more detail, but as I said, I didn't want to confuse the subject pertaining to justins problem anymore than I had.

My mixer has two power amps built in, one for master and one for monitor. This doesn't have "fade" controls as in left or right{although I can configure the amps to act as such}. How I've got it set up is...I record my first track{using adobe auditions} and then play it back thru the monitor amp via the audio out[sound blaster external card} from the PC. the channel that i use has its own{as they all do on this mixer} volume output controls, I turn down to 0 the master volume and the returning signal is sent to my monitors using the monitor volume control. Now I can record my next track using the master amp{on another channel} with the monitor volume{on this channel} zero'd, allowing me to hear the current sounds I'm making via the master speakers in my configuration{while still hearing first track thru the monitors}. The recording out-put is from the master amp and this allows me to record with-out bleed thru.

Wow...I hope I said that right{lol} I've been using this set-up for quite a few years, and like you said "if its working..." but I can sure see how easy it would be to get confused starting "new" {heck I still do}. I've played with the configurations many a time before settling on this way of doing it. I use auditions to do any final fading of channels in the final mix, so I guess in a long about way I get there, But I'm still open to any suggestions or observances you may have pertaining to this.

Thanks again Tekker...We're very very lucky to have you here to share your knowledge with us..You da man:thumbup1:

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justinthyme    3

tekker - that got my head spinning like in the famous Exorcist scene, only faster! If you find time to make the diagrams maybe this old brain could follow along better :)

Thanks again,

Ian

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Lcjones    8

My question is ....

Are you using headphones and a mic?

If so, are your headphones open-backed?

If so, get closed-back headphones.

If you are using open-backed headphones and listening while recording, the sound you hear is also being transported from the headphones, via the "open-back", into the mic.

....just a thought....

**

LC

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Tekker    1
I probably should have went into more detail, but as I said, I didn't want to confuse the subject pertaining to justins problem anymore than I had.

I was hoping your setup could be used with justinthyme's gear also if it was similar. But unfortunately yours is different as you can choose which output each track is sent to, which is exactly what justinthyme needs to make his gear work.

tekker - that got my head spinning like in the famous Exorcist scene, only faster! If you find time to make the diagrams maybe this old brain could follow along better :)

LOL! :D

Ok, hopefully this will help make it a little more clear. The inputs and outputs are general just to illustrate the concept and these can be applied to any mixer. For example, the outputs A and B could be main mixer outpus, aux sends, headphones, RCA tape outpus, or any other output your mixer may provide. But in the diagrams they're generalized to "Out A" and "Out B". Likewise, the inputs could be the regular channel inputs, aux returns, RCA tape inputs, etc... The important thing is how the routing of the mixer internally, as you will see below.

[NOTE: The red lines are the guitar signal and the blue lines are the backing track signal.]

Correct Setup:

DIAGRAM 1

Here each channel on the mixer has an output assignment so you can choose which output the channel goes to. The guitar goes into channel 1 and is then routed to Out A. This output is then sent to the computer's input. The guitar is then mixed with the backing track and computer's output is connected to channel 2 on the mixer which is routed to Out B. Out B is connected to the speakers.

If you start at the guitar input and trace the red arrows through this setup, you'll see that the guitar makes it to the speaker without looping over itself. In other words, there is only one path for the guitar from input to the speaker. The same is true for the backing track, there is only one path for it to follow from the computer to the speaker.

Incorrect Setup:

DIAGRAM 2

Here the mixer does not have output assignments to send each channel to separate outputs. Instead each channel is sent to both A and B outputs.

The guitar goes into channel 1 and is then routed to both Out A and Out B. Out A is connected to the input on the computer. The guitar is mixed with the backing track and plugged into channel 2 on the mixer. Channel 2 is also routed to Out A and Out B (just like channel 1). Out B is connected to the speakers.

Here is where the problems begin. If you trace the guitar and the backing track, you'll see that there are multiple loops in this setup. So instead of only the guitar being recorded on the computer, the backing track is also routed to the computer's input through Out A. The computer output is then fed back to the mixer and tracing this path you can see that there is a never ending loop between Out A and the channel 2 input. There is another loop which doubles the guitar from channel 1 and channel 2 which are both sent to the speakers.

Basically, there are multiple loops with each signal looping back and combining with itself again. Definitely not the ideal recording setup. ;)

Unfortunately, with your mixer there doesn't seem to be a better way to achieve the "correct" setup, other than panning. :(

If I understand this...using a USB connection bypasses the computers sound card, is this perferable and if so why?

Standard PC soundcards are not meant for serious audio recording and are very poor quality. In which case the USB device would be a way to bypass the standard soundcard and will likely give better results.

However, the USB device may not be better than a soundcard which is meant for audio recording (such as M-Audio). In this case, it would be best to try both of them and see which one gives the best results.

-tkr

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Hey Tekker, in my mind, thats exactly how I said it :laughingg:

Kidding aside, Thanks Tekker for taking the time to straighten us out, appreciate it mucho....The diagrams are awesome, shows it all in a straight forward simple yet informative way.:thumbup1::beer:

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Tekker    1
Hey Tekker, in my mind, thats exactly how I said it :laughingg:

Yep, you did. You described your setup which is the "correct" setup. ;)

The purpose of these diagrams was to compare the correct and incorrect setups. So I offered the other piece to the puzzle which is what NOT to do. :D Hopefully it'll help illustrate why justinthyme was getting the backing track bleed and what needs to happen to be able to fix it. Unfortunately it can't be done with his mixer for stereo tracks without loosing all of the effects and other mixing functions, which kind of defeats the purpose of using a mixer in the first place. :dunno: So it's probably better to stick with the panning method.

Kidding aside, Thanks Tekker for taking the time to straighten us out, appreciate it mucho....The diagrams are awesome, shows it all in a straight forward simple yet informative way.:thumbup1::beer:

You're welcome, glad I could help. :winkthumb:

-tkr

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justinthyme    3

Oooooooooookay - thanks for that! its been a bit of a long day here, so I need to concentrate on this more fully tomorrow, but I think I'm getting the picture. Once the lightbulb goes off I'll wonder what caused me such a problem :eek:

One question - how exactly are you able to select for OutA and OutB independently in the 'correct' diagram on other mixers? Is there usually a switch or dual sliders or some other arrangement?

Presumably in my case the IN/OUT functions are both done by the USB cable? Which goes to/from the RCA in/outputs marked CD/TAPE which only seems to have one slider, marked CD/TAPE RET.

Your diagrams have certaily helped simplify in my mind what a mixer actually does - how it should function. That will give me a better chance at deciphering the manual, which up until now has just been gobbledygook mixed (no pun intended) with some gibberish. :)

Isn't all this learning stuff exciting??

tkr, once again - thanks so much!

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Tekker    1
One question - how exactly are you able to select for OutA and OutB independently in the 'correct' diagram on other mixers? Is there usually a switch or dual sliders or some other arrangement?

This depends on the mixer. X4StringDrive's mixer is very simple to do this. It has separate volume controls for the main outputs and monitor outputs. So you could use the monitor output as Out A and use the main outputs as Out B. Then the volume controls would perform the same functions as the switches in my diagram.

With other mixers it is a little more tricky. For example, aux channels that have a pre-fader option can be used to route the channel to the aux output and turning the channel's volume slider all the way down will keep it from also being routed to the main output. Then the aux out works as Out A and the main output works as Out B. But with this method you will lose the ability to use the onboard track effects (if the mixer has them), EQ, and panning. But if all you need is a clean signal to record and you don't want to use the mixer's onboard mixing features and effects, this is a good way to go.

Presumably in my case the IN/OUT functions are both done by the USB cable? Which goes to/from the RCA in/outputs marked CD/TAPE which only seems to have one slider, marked CD/TAPE RET.

Yes, exactly.

Your diagrams have certaily helped simplify in my mind what a mixer actually does - how it should function. That will give me a better chance at deciphering the manual, which up until now has just been gobbledygook mixed (no pun intended) with some gibberish. :)

For recording yes, these are the functions you want to have. These functions aren't necessary though if you only use it for live sound.

Isn't all this learning stuff exciting??

It sure is! :winkthumb:

-tkr

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