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Online Tabs and Copyright Infringement.

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Black&Blue    0

A couple of points spring to mind. First- I recall a time not very long ago when the duration of copyright was much shorter than it is now. Lets not forget that copyright laws have been extensively modified by politicians who are beholden to large companies such as record companies ( who pay for their campaign costs). Such laws are not necessarily just nor appropriate. I would contend that a critical movement in public life the last 30 years has been the erosion of the common good and the replacement of goods and ideas previously held in common with "ownable units". Lets not forget that most of the music we hear is a derivative of much older folk and roots music. Take "spoonful" by Cream. It is a straight borrowing of an old blues tune played by dozens of blues musicians. Does the copyright attached to that recording infringe on our right to draw on the older public domain versions in our work? Once someone chooses to record a traditional tune as a new piece of "pop"does that crystallise out our rights to work on the original work? Clapton himself would recognise that his life work is really directed to keeping the Blues alive. The companies he depends on though have no such altruistic motivation.

What I am saying is: while we have to stay on the right side of the law we do not need to support the current status quo or grant it any real legitimacy other than that derived by the force that the state can bring to bear.

Secondly- just how good are these tabs anyway, and what do you use them for? I know that the only value I see in them is to give a quick check that my developing ear is right when I check out a new tune by ear. I always try to rely on my ear first- and only use the tab to verify what I have already found out. If you really dont know how to play they are not going to teach you how to play a tune- they contain no real information re phrasing, strum patterns etc. I wouldnt mind if they were downloadable for a fee- but for what you get, anything more than 25 cents Australian would be a rip off.

( That is probably not more than the cost per tune in those 1001 tunes made easy for guitar books that you can buy- you know the ones with about 10 tunes you want and then nothing but rubbish.0

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testekleez    0

I've read this thread through, and I haven't heard anyone really discuss why tabs are being squashed lately. It has nothing to do with tabs itself. They've been around for a long time, and widely distributed on the internet for YEARS via usenet and various websites.

However, we now have new software that plays the audio portion of the tabs, such as Guitar Pro and Powertabs. Sites like mysongbook.com, allowed anyone to post tabs of any song they wished to, upon approval of the moderators (they checked for accuracy, proper notation etc. and ensured the lyrics weren't in it).

I actually contributed to the site tabbing "The Workplace" by Jim O'Rourke. The tab sounded right, but it wasn't technically correct. Tabs have been around forever in text format, and it wasn't until software like Guitar Pro came around, that the music industry started making a big deal out of it.

IMO it's the fact that it plays the audio of the tab itself.

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fly135    5
IMO it's the fact that it plays the audio of the tab itself.

My feeling is that the whole internet explosion of downloading mp3's, movies, and other copyright material has pushed the industry into examining protecting all aspects of their IP. The tabs are still out there, which IMO keeps the pressure on for the industry to find suitable ways to make a buck but still give us what we want at a reasonable cost.

I believe that it's reasonable to think at some point licensed outlets will let us buy tabs and format variations like GP/Powertab of individual songs. And this will only happen because of copyright skirting web sites and file sharing that's keeps the pressure on the industry, which historically holds out to find a market paradigm it wants verses one that we want. I really don't think the music industry ever wanted to sell individual downloadable songs, but had no choice.

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testekleez    0

The way I see it is out with the old and in with the new. I know Apple's happy about mp3's lol. The music industry is still making money hand over fist. I understand the reasons why they are upset as they have legal rights to the music.

There's no doubt that Napster hurt the industry, without question. But, they've adjusted to the technology for the most part and it's still a profitable business to be in. One thing that has really suffered though is shows. You just don't see the big elaborate concerts going on much any longer.

I was fortunate enough to see some great shows in my time such as, U2 back in 91'. That was a hell of a show with great visuals. One of my female friends actually had a little part in the show. They had a confession booth that you could go in before the show and talk about whatever you want.

Well, she went in there and about halfway into the show, up on the huge screen, was my friend Christine (wasn't my girlfriend). She said that she screwed her boyfriend's best friend (neither were there but it was absolutely hilarious as hell).

I saw Motley Crue, Metallica, Whitesnake, Guns N' Roses, Grateful Dead so many great concerts. I missed Pink Floyd when they came around (had to work!! Had I known I would have ended up quitting that job I woulda gone anyways lol). You just don't see those kinds of shows much any longer.

All you see these days is a band on a stage with maybe a few lighting techniques and little else. Pretty boring, but if the artist is good enough, still enjoyable. This is where the bands themselves make the most money.

One of the good things about P2P is that you can access songs you would probably never hear otherwise, as they aren't available for purchase anywhere. For example, indy bands that haven't printed a record in years. Or bootlegs of shows that aren't available for purchase etc.

I don't see why the industry wouldn't want to market mp3 as it cuts distribution costs significantly. CD's are way too expensive IMO for what they are. I realize people have to make money but geez, $15 for a cd is ridiculous! I'd much rather buy the mp3's and burn em to a disc or ipod and choose the formats I want the music on saving money along the way.

Not to mention, you can cherry pick the tunes you want in stead of having to buy an entire album. Not too many albums in history are great from start to finish but these days especially, it's difficult to find an album I can listen to from start to finish without skipping tracks. The industry is more about quantity than quality these days.

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fly135    5
CD's are way too expensive IMO for what they are.

I don't think the price of a CD is related to it's cost of production. Cassette tapes were cheaper than CD for a long time and I believe that CD's were cheaper to make. I also recall major outlets like Circuit City heavily discounting CDs and the industry forced them to sell at a minimum price. I doubt the industry would have ever sold individual songs once they got past the days of 45's if it wasn't for internet pirating.

I did see PF when they toured for Animals.:winkthumb:

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testekleez    0
I did see PF when they toured for Animals.

I think I was just being born around that time. So you actually got to see the entire Pink Floyd (minus Barrett)! Awesome!!! I was ecstatic when they had that reunion in England a while back. It was cool to see Waters up there with Gilmour for one last go.

They kicked ass too! Wish I were rich enough to have flown out there and witness it personally. It's probably a good thing that they broke apart, as Gilmour has written quite a few great Floyd tunes since the split that may not have been had they stayed together.

I still love Waters though. He has a unique gift of expression that even Gilmour can't replicate. Without a doubt, my favorite ALBUMS by Floyd were with both Gilmour and Waters but Gilmour certainly has some great stuff as well. I usually prefer just a few tunes on his albums as opposed to the entire albums with Waters and Animals happens to be one of my favorite. I can listen to DSOTM, Animals, The Wall, Wish You Were Here, Meddle all the way through without skipping tracks. Those are worth the price of admission IMO.

I find myself skipping tracks on many of the Gilmour Floyd albums but still finding great songs.

Yes you're right that production of CD's is cheaper than cassettes. It is the industry that keeps the prices high, not the retailers. Very few albums are worth $15-20 bucks regardless.

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fly135    5

I completely concur on your opinion about Floyd. Waters was great but he strikes me has having an air of arrogance about him. IMO Floyd was what it was because of all of the members. Sure, it's easy for Waters to find someone that can copy Gilmour's style and licks in concert. Gilmour's only been the inspiration for God knows how many guitarists. So Gilmour clones are probably a dime a dozen.

As a beginning guitarist Gilmour's licks and style seem approachable and full of feeling. Unabashedly I admit Gilmour is my guitar hero and major inspiration.

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testekleez    0

I don't think anyone could replace Gilmour, but I do understand what you're saying. Gilmour is one of my guitar heroes as well and he's also a great writer and vocalist.

They had a chemistry that just doesn't happen all that often in music. The original Black Sabbath had that kind of chemistry as well and when Ozzy left, they're sound left with him IMO as the Dio Sabbath and those that followed, just didn't have the mojo.

This isn't the case with Floyd necessarily, as Gilmour has written, produced and performed some outstanding tunes, such as "Learning to Fly", "On the Turning Away" (I prefer the live version), "A Great Day for Freedom" and a few others I can't recall the names of offhand. Of course, this is my opinion, and many would beg to differ but together, they were awesome.

Waters never did all that well on his own. His solo albums have some decent tunes, but nowhere near the great songs he collaborated with Gilmour on. The Final Cut was basically Waters stuff, but Gilmour still threw some of his talents in there to make for some great tunes.

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fly135    5

I have The Final Cut on vinyl. I listened to that album when I first bought it, was disappointed, and haven't listened to it since. I probably should dig it out and give it another spin.

I think Gilmour is a great singer and a great frontman. Watching the Pulse concert on DVD really brought that home to me. To see him up there singing and playing, and realizing that this is a major force in musics that's going on 40 years old was phenomenal.

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Lcjones    8

hmmm...

Regardless of where people think the hit on tab is coming from, the main beef is coming from the "publishers" of the music books we all "used" to purchase. Some of them may own limited rights to some works, but not all. Fact remains, if they don't publish/print music books, they lose money, go out of business and people lose jobs. Kind of like evolution and the food chain. You would think they should notice it's time to shift gears or at least step a rung on the ladder of evolution. But thats too much work.... to shift gears. Rather, the mentality is to just go after someone, litigate the beejeebers out of them and let them foot the bill.

The publishers/printers are not meeting "projected revenues" and they have the power as well as the where-with-all, to enlist the likes of MPA (Music Publishers Association) do battle for them to collect those revenues from Joe-Tab-Dude. The MPA has deep pockets. So they go after Joe-Tab-Dude to shut down his "free" tab access site. The put the fear of almighty music god in them and Joe, says screw it. Why deal with it. No one wins in this situation. The end user loses because they are "mandated" to purchase something they don't want. The publisher still loses, although he's now got some pocket change, because they have burned therir bridges with the end user.

The same thing is happening to Internet Radio at nearly the same level.

Again, regardless who is doing what in the music business (world), there is a tiny handful of people with an ungodly amount of money that do not want you to enjoy music in any way, shape or form, unless they get a piece of the action. No one wins in this situation. No one wins when the only object of the game is greed. The end user is the ultimate loser by being force fed a diet of cold cut music that reflect the whims of music mogul greed hounds. The moguls lose, though they now have another pocket full of change, because they are hated by the very large and ever growing population of music explorers.

Do not get me wrong. The "rights-ful owner" of any piece of legitimate music-craft is due recompense in what ever form they choose. And we as potential users of that music-craft are obligated to fulfill that recompense if and when we use said music-craft.

But it's a tri-bladed ax we are being chopped up with in regard to tab and published music notation.

We purchase tab or a notation book that is copyright protected from a legal and sanctioned vendor. We then learn how to play this new tune. We wish to play that tune at our local coffee shop............ We can't. Not until we know that either 1) the coffee shop has paid the standard "fee" to allow copyright material to be played or 2) We pay a mechanical fee to such places as Harry Fox Agency, in order to play. Theoretically, the coffee emporium pays. However, I doubt that many actually do.

So you pay to learn and then you pay to play. You are literally taxed twice to learn a song and play it in public. Heaven forbid you actually make any money playing these copyright tunes, for you will be taxed yet again by George Harrison's Tax Man.

"Let me tell you how it will be;

There's one for you, nineteen for me.

'Cause I’m the taxman,

Yeah, I’m the taxman."

**

LC

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Stratrat    0
...Again, regardless who is doing what in the music business (world), there is a tiny handful of people with an ungodly amount of money that do not want you to enjoy music in any way, shape or form, unless they get a piece of the action...

Amen. That's EXACTLY the point. For them, music isn't about music - it's purely, 100% about MONEY.

Fly hit the nail on the head too, when he said that the industry never would have sold single songs beyond the old 45's if it wasn't for the advent of P2P. They'd much rather charge you $15 for a CD with 2 hits and 14 junk "filler" songs.

....The end user is the ultimate loser by being force fed a diet of cold cut music that reflect the whims of music mogul greed hounds...

....and there you have Clear Channel with their dreck programming formats. Listen to the same 20 songs over and over and over again, in amongst the 25 or so commercials per hour.

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Black&Blue    0
hmmm...

We purchase tab or a notation book that is copyright protected from a legal and sanctioned vendor. We then learn how to play this new tune. We wish to play that tune at our local coffee shop............ We can't. Not until we know that either 1) the coffee shop has paid the standard "fee" to allow copyright material to be played or 2) We pay a mechanical fee to such places as Harry Fox Agency, in order to play. Theoretically, the coffee emporium pays. However, I doubt that many actually do.

**

LC

Having been in business for a good few years I bet most of these businesses do pay. Once you have a business address and a tax file number and so forth you are an easy and stationary target- assumed to have deep pockets. Much more enticing a target than the rogue teenage tabber blazing away from home on his PC. If you are planning to sue somebody be sure he has enough assets to make it worth your while. Most businesses find those sorts of compliance costs cheaper than the cost of non compliance.

As an aside to another of your comments I have found it rare to find a book of published popular music that is published with the guitarist in mind. If I see a good one I almost always buy it.

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PepticDust    0

I don't have a problem buy tab books that are available out there. I saw in the music store a tab book for the whole album of Nevermind. My only issues are, it's still not as good as the tab in Powertab. Second, not all bands have them. There is no tab book available for Kittie if I want to learn their songs (though the band doesn't care if you want to post the tabs on their forum). So it's either the internet for them or nothing.

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Hilch    0

It maybe all about money and I aint going to debate that as we all have our suspions thats what is all about ...

I want to look at this from the other side of the coin as this does not seem to get mentioned that often ..

Hilch writes a song no better I'll use one of my songs

I wrote a song called " Kiss Me "

The words are mine copy written to me

The Music is copy written to Elle and Vic Lewis

If the 3 above people mentioned above sell the copy rights to that song say to a publishing company for { little joke here}

$ 1 million ...

Then surely the purchaser has the right to make money from their purchase ..

If everyone gets tabs from the net and isn't paying for them , then the writters / musicians won't earn money for hard work by selling their songs to who ever ...

Which in turn will mean fewer new song writters / artists coming out and being different ..

Money yes but it isn't always the big companies who want some ..

Just my own view on things

Trev........:)

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starsailor    20

Yes that's a good point Hilch, songwriters make their money by selling songs, it's their career, if people get everything for free then a lot of people will be going broke, the focus is on big companies and multi-millionaire song writers but people forget the little guy who wrote a few hits in the 60s and depends on the royalties for a pension, the PRS in the UK protects the performing rights but the songs written music is mostly unprotected, I don't mind paying for a tab if the money goes to the Artist, if the artist sells the tab rights to a big company at least they make some money out of it. It's the trickle down effect you may harm the big guys by downloading free tabs but the damage will be felt in the little guys pocket, that's the way the World Works, if we're downloading everything for free, we're not really much better than the Corporate cronies as ultimately we're both ripping the Artist off.

Ps. Think you might want to hold out on the price a bit Hilch, don't forget the World rights.

Cheers

Chris

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Hilch    0

lol Starsailor

I have no intention of ever parting with that song ...

That was a example only of what I wanted to say ...

" Kiss Me " and 2 other songs I wrote I will never part with as they mean so much to ..

Freedom and Everbody Cries

Trev..:)

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Black&Blue    0

I don,t think there is any real question that artists should be paid for their work. The real issue is what is the use that tab is put to and how much value can be attributed to that use. I really only use tab to verify that my ear is right- for me the main game is to develop my ear and deepen my "trick bag". The typical use I would have for a tab would be when listening to a CD at home to log on and quickly check one or two points ( ie turnaround played on the D string against a static A on the high E string). There is simply no point in paying a lot for that kind of service.

Tab books also commit you to lots of stuff you don't want. I think we would all be better off if the industry would get its backside into gear and organise an I-Tunes type model for this service. Given that the tab is a far lesser service than the full download of the tune it should be much cheaper per tab than I tune's 99c per download. I would have no problem with that.

The broader issue is just how much info can you exchange on a piece of music without breaching copyright? The chord progression in itself, supposedly is not an issue.

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starsailor    20
lol Starsailor

I have no intention of ever parting with that song ...

That was a example only of what I wanted to say ...

" Kiss Me " and 2 other songs I wrote I will never part with as they mean so much to ..

Freedom and Everbody Cries

Trev..:)

I was being lighthearted Trev but I forgot to put the :):isaynothing: on the post, I asked members to look at a guitar for me last week and forgot to put the picture on, not the cleverest thing to do.:winkthumb:

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fly135    5
I don,t think there is any real question that artists should be paid for their work.

I don't think it's just an issue of whether the artist gets paid or not. Whoever owns the work deserves to be paid. However, and this is the big however... It's evident the public isn't going to tolerate control of a work that keeps them from enjoying it. If the rightful music owner decides not to create a tab or create bad ones, then the public will do what it wants and create it's own.

If the public wants powertab or guitar pro tabs and they can't be bought, then they will create them and share them. The owner of the ip is going to have to keep on their toes and decide if they can meet the needs of the public and if it's going to be profitable to do so. The law may give them rights but it doesn't give them absolute enforceability. Music is culture and it's an intangible entity in many respects.

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Black&Blue    0
I don't think it's just an issue of whether the artist gets paid or not. Whoever owns the work deserves to be paid. However, and this is the big however... It's evident the public isn't going to tolerate control of a work that keeps them from enjoying it. If the rightful music owner decides not to create a tab or create bad ones, then the public will do what it wants and create it's own.

If the public wants powertab or guitar pro tabs and they can't be bought, then they will create them and share them. The owner of the ip is going to have to keep on their toes and decide if they can meet the needs of the public and if it's going to be profitable to do so. The law may give them rights but it doesn't give them absolute enforceability. Music is culture and it's an intangible entity in many respects.

I'm all for that way of thinking. Plenty of artists provide their own tab, or like Neil Young, tolerate fan sites like Live Rust or Red Sun that provide excellent tabs for free. Commercially speaking fans like that are like gold, and it is wise to encourage them at every opportunity. I guess in the end it boils down to what is a smart business choice. I know I am always hanging out for the next Neil Young release, so I guess I am a convert to his way of doing business.

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