[Cloud]

Would it be easier to learn how to write a song on a acoustic guitar, rather than learning how to play it? Like could writing a song inprove your playing abilities? Just a question. Thanks for the help if you give some. Please don't post if you don't know. It's annoying and spam. Thanks for the help in advanced.

[si16]

Sorry, don't know.

[Jean]

Yes songwriting does boost your abillities but first learn some songs...(get down the basics..)

[Jean]

Originally Posted by si16

Sorry, don't know.

SPAM SPAM!!! I'm telling!!

[si16]

Originally Posted by Jean

SPAM SPAM!!! I'm telling!!

Please, Jean, don't tell. If I get kicked off this forum I'll have to spend time with my wife and kids instead.

Cloud, forum member Stephen has written some good songwriting ideas in the Songwriting section and these would be a good place to start.

[Jean]

Dont worry Simon I've changed my mind!

Cloud, here is a link to Stephens song writing process- The songwriting process

Still I say get down a basic song first....

[Stephen]

I agree that it helps to learn songs and study their construction as you begin to write your own. On the other hand, if you feel the urge to create, there are some hints that will help you as a beginner.

First, not all the melodic possibilities of simple chord progressions have yet been discovered. New songs with a basic four-chord pattern such as C Am F G or Am G F E, repeated over and over, are still being written. Try a basic progression using using chords that you know will work together (C F G is the simplest, but you can change the order and stay on any chord as long as you like). This will allow you to compose new melodies by listening to the notes of the chords you're playing but will not tax your brain trying to find new progressions by throwing chords together and seeing what works (though this is a valid technique to try later when you understand more about harmony). Meanwhile, try taking a song you know and writing a new melody for it using the same chords.

Second, if you have a flair for writing, it's not too hard to come up with some lyrics that rhyme. Write a new lyric for that melody you just wrote and you have a new song. Don't let your lack of experience stop you. Think of something you want to say, write about your experience or about what you know. If you don't like the results at first, that's normal. I still start about 3 or 4 songs for every one that turns out well. The others are scrapped. As you learn more about songs, chords and progressions, the whole process will get easier.

[Cloud]

Ok, one problem. I've only been playing since christmas day. So what excatly do I need to know to write my own songs. Like note wise?

[allthumbs]

You really have to spend some time learning chords first. Most songs are written in the !,!V,V progression or variations of it so thats a good place to start. If you stumble across a line of notes that sounds good to you, you will need to know what chord those notes came from so you can determine a key which then tells you what other chords and notes will fit for your tune.
A good way to get inspiration is to play a chord, then play notes that would sound good over it while the sound of the ringing chord is still in your ears. Then do the next chord. Another way is to just find chords that work together and put a simple picking pattern over them. Get it down and then play with the pattern to make it interesting.Writing your own tunes is a pretty big step for the amount of playing time you have.

[Stephen]

Once you've learned a few chords you'll be able to play a simple progression (set or sequence of chords). Having mastered that you can begin making up melodies by listening to the notes in the chords. Often you will be able to hear sequencs of notes that sound good. Sing them. That's the beginning of your tune.

I agree with allthumbs that it may be just a bit early for you. That shouldn't stop you from trying anyway, but meanwhile keep practicing those chord shapes and changes.

[Cloud]

Allthumbs: What do you mean by that pattern?


I'll try writing songs, big step but I'm wanna learn quickily.

[allthumbs]

There are several standard picking patterns that can be played pretty much over any chords. Like doing simple arpeggios for each chord. An example of that,sort of, is House of The Rising Sun.When your starting out,a simple picking pattern leaves you some room to focus on your vocals.

[Lcjones]

i think you need to clarify by what you mean, "write my own song". do you mean writing just lyrics or just a melody or both.

neither of them is a simple process. although, one begats the other. and now to muddy up the waters, there is no singular way to write a song. there is no set method of writing a song. there is no rule that says to write the music and then the lyric or write the lyric and then the music. forget the stigma of rules for there are none.

first, as has been mentioned elsewhere, writing lyrics is a difficult thing. but let me digress a moment. earlier i said "forget the stigma of rules". let me re-phrase that to be, "forget about the stigma of rules except for this one .... -> rewrite". if there is any rule to follow, "rewrite" is the rule. no matter how well you think you have written a lyric, it can and will be better by rewriting. by finding new ways to say that "same old cliche". by finding ways to put "color" into your lyric.

so, how to get those writing juices to flow. in other words, "bring the muse in from the cold" ...... i know, i know, this is going to sound silly, stupid and anal. get a note pad, a journal book with blank pages or something you can carry with you day and night. when something strikes your fancy, write it down. no matter what time of day or night, write it down. you may hear someone say a word that brings up a memory of the smell of pancakes your dad used to make. write it down. a light may flash that hurts your eyes, "and in a flash of light" .... write it down.

at this point, don't worry about meter or rhymes or even spelling, just get it down. a little thing i do when I take the Mrs. grocery shopping and i'm sitting in the car for what seems like eternity; i just write down random words. doesn't matter, random is good. and then 45 hours later when she comes out, i've got a nice list of words that i can keep to jog my mind when i sit down to write.

a lot of folks say "make a title" and then write a lyric around the title. not a bad idea. but you need to remember, the title is, in most cases, the hook to the lyric. the hook is what "hooks" the listener and makes them to continue to listen to the song. "hook, line and sinker".

some folks start playing a chord progression on their guitar, a simple GCD. and then they mix is up by adding an Am or a Bb and that triggers the writing process. in other words, you start a chord set, have a rhythm cooking and while you're playing you just start humming a melody to the chords. now you've got a base melody and certain words lend themselves to a melody or rhythm. pretty soon you have the beginnings of a lyric.

i know i've rambled on a bit, but these are just some suggestions to get you started.

I keep these at my "writing desk" at all times, a rhyming dictionary, a thesaurus and a book of quotations (like Bartlett's Book Of Quotations). Get a set and keep them handy. You would be amazed at the words and phrases you can come up with by having these three tools at hand.

one last note on words. the English language is incredibly large. one source counts English words to about 850,000, give or take a few. the French language has, by contrast, less than 100,000 words. if i remember correctly, the average English speaking person uses less than 10% of the English language in a lifetime. John F Kennedy's command of the English language was in the neighborhood of 45%. (please correct me if i'm wrong)

Well, thats, a start .....thanks for getting this far.

Best to you,

Les

[Stephen]

That's some good advice there lcjones, sounds like you've been around the block. I'd love to hear one of your songs.

[Lcjones]

phase II .......

i'd like to add some thoughts here, and i hope folks don't think i'm going over board. these are things that i have picked up over the years. and it's high time i return the favor.

Avoid This TRAP!!!!!!

if anything is more difficult than learning to write lyrics/songs, it is learning how to critique lyrics/songs. if you're a writer, then write. don't critique until you completely understand how to critique, when to critique, and expecially why to critique.

do not critique your self. it is futile. it is reverse engineering. it is self-deprecating. it does you no good. let others who understand and know "how" to critique, read your work. let them tell you how it is. if you critique yourself, you will get no where. you are your own worst enemy!

Avoid This TRAP!!!!

Gordon Lightfoot, one of the worlds best lyricists, said about song writing.... "you haven't written a song until you've written 400 songs".

and there is truth to that. ok, yep ... but you say ... "all it takes is one good lyric" .... yep, thats right ..... pitched to the right person, marketed by the right team, backed by the best singers and musicians ...... and bam .... you own an island off the coast of Spain. but lets get real. i mentioned above there are no rules to writing a song. well, maybe not rules, but there is a "formula" ..... hence "commercial music". i'm not going to get into the technical aspects of writing here. rather, hopefully, just give some guidance and encouragement.

let me throw a disclaimer out first. i am not a professional writer. i have never sold a song. i did pay to have a lyric printed in a compilation book of lyrics, i have yet to make money from music. but i write lyrics almost daily to hone and perfect my writing abilites. even if it's just one line!

i used to be an evangelist against commercial radio. i was one of those, "i write for myself" type of musicians and avoided the stark reality of commercialism. well, writing for yourself is good and healthy for body and soul, however, it's not going to get you anywhere except perhaps center stage of your kitchen or family room.

in the 60's when modern rock and roll was just hitting the airwaves, 61, 62, 63, all we had was AM radio and the local DJ played exactly what was given him to play. it was good and it worked because we knew no better. sometime about '65 or '66, FM radio came on the scene. i received my first AM/FM transistor radio about that time and all of a sudden there was an alternative to "commercial radio". one of my favorite stations was called Jelly Pudding Radio. they flat rocked. i mean they played "all" the progressive rock of the period. they did not play "commercial songs". AM radio was playing Incense and Peppermints by the Strawberry Alarm Clock .... FM was cranking out Badger by Eric Clapton. it was alternative radio before anyone knew what that term was. well, we all know what has happened to FM radio over the last four decades. it's commerical radio now. i was tainted. which has cost me 30 years of my life and caused me to black-list myself from commercial music for 3 decades. i have found the err of my ways.

didn't mean to get off track there ...

The formula.....

Well, simplistically, a commercial song should be around 3 minutes long, get the hook to the listener in 30 - 45 seconds (get 'em while they're hot), have a couple or three verses, a great bridge, a tidy chorus and you've got a hit. well maybe not a hit, but a formulized potential commercial song.

so don't go bang your head against the wall and/or kill yourself writing eight or 12 verse songs. very few can get away with it and in my mind only one writer has ever succeeded in the "long song" arena and that's Bob Dylan. ok, well, go ahead and write your eight or 12 verses, then narrow the verse list down until you have "the main three" verses that completely tell the story and/or convey the meaning of your song. once you've mastered the 3 minute song, have a recording deal worth millions, can call up your agent and tell him you're off to Monaco for a few months, then you can induldge yourself and write that 12 verse nine minute song! (i'll be your baggage man!)

i know i've been long winded again, but these are things i wanted to bring right up front. the purpose is not to dissuade you from writing but to open your eyes to the reality of the process and to give you encouragement. so i encourage you to write at every opportunity, study and read about song writing, listen and i mean "seriously listen" to not only the lyrics of hit songs but the music of hit songs as well. as you listen to these hits, you'll soon see a pattern (i.e., the formula) that makes it a hit song.


thanks for getting this far. and as George Harrison says, "if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there".



Les
Peace