[PurplePeopleEaters]

In the past few weeks i've finally set up my band that i've been working on getting together for the past year. I figure songwriting can't be that hard, right? wrong. The first time I tried starting with lyrics. I'm not bad at writing lyrics whatsoever but It ends up being a great poem but a song with no flow. Next I try starting with the music instead and work my way to writing the lyrics. I sit down with my guitar trying to write a song and my mind goes blank. Other songs from different bands are running through my head and every time I come up with something hald way decent it's nothing in comparison to the songs running through my brain. Then when I get something pretty good I realize that it sounds almost exactly like another song.

this is probably the most annoyed i've been with guitar since I started. I just love playing but when it comes down to concrete work like songwriting, nothing comes to my mind. I've tried reading "songwriting basics" and other things of the sort from different sites and while most are well written and thought out, I still can't think straight.

Does anyone have any suggestions for getting past artist block and writing something truly catchy and great? I guess it doesn't help that I feel like i'm doing all the work in my band..

[allthumbs]

it is easier if you have the band to bounce ideas and riffs off. It is not easy coming up with original tunes. Lots of practice and research has to be done. You are going to have to be patient. It is not uncommon to spend large chunks of time getting a tune together. There is a reason bands can be in a studio 9 months or longer recording tunes.

[knight46]

I wrote a lot of poetry when I was younger (same as songs only sung slower) and found that if I sat down particularly to write I couldn't. But if I suddenly had a thought I could write for days. Music should come from the heart and soul and it is difficult to create heart and soul, that usually just happens. You sit down to noodle and a song comes out or you see or hear something that inspires and lyrics appear. Don't try to hard to sit and write, just let your heart speak to you.

[PurplePeopleEaters]

Originally Posted by knight46

I wrote a lot of poetry when I was younger (same as songs only sung slower) and found that if I sat down particularly to write I couldn't. But if I suddenly had a thought I could write for days. Music should come from the heart and soul and it is difficult to create heart and soul, that usually just happens. You sit down to noodle and a song comes out or you see or hear something that inspires and lyrics appear. Don't try to hard to sit and write, just let your heart speak to you.

See, I can let my heart speak to me really well with lyrics. I write down everything that i'm thinking at the time and all the troubles I have and put them into poetry. It's the actual writing of the song that gets me. I can't get the lyrics and the music to go together. Well.. I'm going to sit down with the lead singer later today and see what we can come up with using some of the lyrics I wrote. I'll see if that works.

[eddiez152]

Purple,
I was inspried to write my first original lyric by a post here on GFB&B. Never done this
before. The post mentioned something about "changes" with that one word I created a story line. The I began to play a tune to that story line with chords I know well.
There subject was different, but It gave me an idea. I will be posting it soon.
It may be the best I'll ever do in my life time.
Sometimes it just happens.
eddiez

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by eddiez152

Then I began to play a tune to that story line with chords I know well.

I supect that's a great tip right there.

I've been messing around with song writing for the past few months and am hitting all the same problems that Purple mentioned. The biggest difficulty seems to be that you are actually attempting something quite complex - it only looks simple after it's done. So narrowing it down a bit by using at least one element that you already have reasonably well sorted out sounds like a good strategy.

I can write songs in my head, without too much difficulty. I can hear a voice singing the melody line. I can compose lyrics. I can play plenty of chords. I can pick out a line of notes. I appear to have the tools - so why doesn't the job get done??

My guess is that I need to break it down into separate tasks. Approach it like a musical arranger. Think about the different elements, such as the melody line for the voice, the underlying rhythm backing and so on. Try and get it sorted bit by bit instead of trying to just muscle it all into shape in one go.

I'm sure that there are dozens of different ways of going about it, but I'm tired of producing pages of what are really only bad poems until they have the music.

So I'm going to try this for a while:

1. Get rough idea. Bang down a few lines of lyrics.

2. Try a few tempos and rhythm patterns just to get a feel for the pulse of the song.

3. Get a melody line sorted out and write it down note by note.
(This is what I've been neglecting. I've just been jumping straight to trying to fit chords to the singing - singing that I can't do properly anyway ).

4. Work on selecting appropriate chords to fit the melody.

5. Rinse, repeat and wrestle until it starts to take shape.

I've no idea if this is a good way to work or not. But I do feel that I need to know a fair bit more about how the various elements work harmoniously together before I can move forward. If I can't just sing the tune I can 'hear', then maybe I need to be able to play it as a lead until I can get the rest sorted? And, either way, I'd like to have something a bit more solid than guesswork and trial and error to help me construct something that works.

If I spent more time working on it, and less time rabbiting away on forums, I'd probably be half way there by now. So, today's resolution is to stop typing and get plucking and writing....

I'd be most intrigued to hear how others do it - particularly if you don't have good singing skills.

Cheers,

Chris

Too many words.... not enough notes.... bad Chris....

[cjashley]

Hi, I thought I'd thow in my 2 cents. I'm taking songwriting lessons right now...at first I too, thought how difficult could it be, but I've learned that although there aren't any real rules, there are some very specific guidelines that you need to follow, especially if your looking at having the songs pitched and produced. The recording industry is cut-throat, and if you at least follow the guidelines, half of the battle is already won.

The first thing I'd suggest is always carrying around a small notepad with you so that you can write down phrases that you hear people say, or when something inspiring pops into your head. Or, a small cassette recorder is great too.

One thing I learned, is that you have to come up with the title of your song first. From there, you can keep your idea focused and you won't find yourself all over the place.

After you have the title, sit down and start writing everything that comes into your mind that has to do with that title, such as words, phrases, your feelings etc., even if those things aren't the words you want to use in the song...those ideas will lead you to what you eventually want to say. After that, you have to determine what structure you want the song to be...verse/chorus or verse/bridge...there are other variations, but these are the main ones. The title that you've picked will pretty much dictate which one you need to use.

There's a lot that goes into putting your song together, and the above is just the tip of the iceberg.

It's a good way to start, and I also use a booklet that my instructors wrote, who are platinum award winning songwriters, that tell you step by step how to set up your lyrics, structure & music.

If anyone is interested in the name of the book, it's not expensive, please send me a message, and I'll pass on the info. I don't know if I'm allowed to post that info on here or not.

If you have this guideline, there's no way you can get writer's block, or know what to write next. The book is terrific. It's helped me a lot.

Hope some of this helps.

Connie

[eddiez152]

Connie,
Well that was an informative post. I think the book idea is very nice, I'd like to take a look at it.
eddiez

[Vic Lewis]

Something Connie said; "One thing I learned, is that you have to come up with the title of your song first. From there, you can keep your idea focused and you won't find yourself all over the place." I'd disagree slightly with that - the first thing you should have in mind is a good hook, whether it's a good line lyrically or musically. That hook MAY end up being the title....

One thing I HAVE learned is that no two people write a song the same way...for me, nine times out of ten it'll be a phrase I've read or heard that sparks my imagination. As I'm writing lyrics, I'll have a rough idea of a melody and/or chords in my head to go with the words...usually I'll have a guitar handy, which is even better.

When I've got that spark, that germ of an idea, I'll play around with it....I never quite know how it's going to end up, but hey, that's half the fun of being creative!

To digress slightly - Stephen King, in an article titled "Why I was Bachman" wrote the following; "....I never really planned anything big that I ever did, and that includes the books I've written. I never sat down and wrote page one with anything but the vaguest idea of how things would turn out."

OK, writing a three-hundred page novel isn't quite the same as writing a three-minute song - but there are similarities. You've got to tell your story, get the point across and keep the reader's/listener's attention.

I read a HECK of a lot - have done since I was a teenager, over thirty years ago. There's nothing better to improve your vocabulary, your word-power and your fluency. I think after a while the constant reader tends to absorb, consciously or not, some of the mannerisms of the writers he reads most frequently, a certain turn of phrase, a throw-away line, little nuances and subtleties that the not-so-heavy reader might not pick up on. I'm never quite certain whether that's a good thing or not - on the whole, though, anything that improves your standards has got to be good, hasn't it?

Buy a dictionary. Buy a Thesaurus as well. Carry that notepad around and jot your ideas down. Read, read, read - books, magazines, newspapers, anything that carries the printed word.

Songwriting, like any other musical discipline, isn't something that comes easily to most people - it has to be practised, polished and perfected. I haven't managed the third one yet, possibly I never will - but it won't be through lack of trying!

Good luck with the writing.....



Vic

[Chris C]

Great posts from Vic and Connie. Thanks very much for the ideas.

I agree with Vic's thoughts about finding a good hook. That does seem to be at the heart of most successful songs. I also like the idea that the creative process has something of a life of its own, and that you really have no idea of where you might end up when you start. Apparently fiction writers often start with a basic idea and then reshape their story several times as it unfolds. For instance, it's common to make a start with any sort of rough beginning but to go back and write a really punchy and eye-catching opener after you've written the book, and know where it went!

The area that I find difficult right now is the music itself, rather than the lyrics. But I guess that's just a matter of doing more practice, gaining more experience and learning more about melody and harmony - and how it all fits together. It's frustrating not being a competent singer, or having a good voice control. It makes it much harder to just pick up the guitar and experiment with chords when you can't hold the voice line. But I'm sure that, like learning any other instrument, I just need to put more work in. It was instructive to see Allthumbs comment that before he recorded the recent song he posted here, he sang it around the house for a week. Nothing works like experience and preparation.

I guess that songwriting is a bit like improvising solos. It all looks very free and spontaneous when you see it done, but as Vic suggested it's really a product of many small known steps and relationships just mixed differently.

I see improvising as something like cooking, not as an exercise in being constantly new and groundbreaking, but more as blending a known set of elements in different ways. A good chef will take the same ingredients from the shelves, follow familiar steps, but vary the recipe and add some fresh twists and seasoning. I believe that good improvising musicians do much the same thing – put together a new mix using well known patterns, pathways, tricks and licks.

Songwriting is probably not that different. You can't beat having some knowledge and experience in your pantry.

When I first listened to Kirk play I couldn't help wondering "What’s he playing through that I haven’t got? Is it an amp, his guitar, the strings, an effects pedals, or what?" The answer, of course, is that he definitely is playing through something that I haven’t got – forty-five years of experience. And one important element of that is all the little ways of making things work to various effect that he has discovered and I haven’t yet. Not only discovered, but played enough to be able to recreate them instantly where appropriate without even thinking about it. I'm not too bad in that regard when it comes to words - I'm just a greenhorn when it comes to doing it with music.

Time to get my fingers off the keyboard and back on those strings!....

Cheers,

Chris

Too many words, not enough notes...

[cjashley]

Hey Guys,

We're both correct. The Title "IS" the Hook. The hook is what is remembered most in the song, and when someone goes to purchase the record, gotta have that title (hook). Not to say you can't have a different hook than the title, there are some (not that many) songs that are titled with something that's never heard in the song, and then that leaves your listener wondering what it's called.

In my opinion, if I was pitching a new song as an unknown artist, I'd want to try to follow what the powers that be are looking for. After you have some clout, you could probably do anything you want.

Those are just the standards though, to each his own.

See, we'll pretty much all on the same page, and It's all good!

Cheers!

Connie

[Dewy]

Can I Digress? May I insert a slight disagreement? Everyone is saying "Title" of the song... and I believe that to be slightly inaccurate.

The FIRST thing I must have about a song is the TOPIC. It may be a rainy day... but is that what the song is about? Title, lyrics, chorus, it all has to follow a TOPIC. Topic will help determine the pace, aggression, and everything else about the song.

If I get a snippet of lyric or chorus I like... first thing I do is try to derive the topic from that, and sketch the rest of the song from that topic.

If I am in a rut (or have a guitar line w/no topic) I "borrow" a topic from my predecessors. Its usually as benign as person, place, thing, or emotion... so its not technically plagiarism. I wouldn't write a "Hotel Alabama" but I might use the "Motel down the road" to write about a place of ill repute (we actually have a LaGrange here).

The singer of our band said to me last Sunday, "We need to start working on original material... so we will have some 6 months from now when we're ready to record". So I sat down Monday morning and wrote a few scratch lyrics (everything has to be edited 3-25 times before its done, don't waste time trying to bleed the perfect lyric right away), and some cool guitar lines to wrap around them.

Always important to remember... not everything is Stairway to Heaven, some things are simply Tush. I.E. don't waste time trying to write an EPIC... if its meant to be an epic, it will turn out that way.

As of today (Friday) I am going to nail down the top 6 tunes that have come out of this period onto scratch tracks to pass around to the band. The drums and Bass will subtly change the way I approach the guitar in the songs... and the singer will of course have final say over what comes out of his mouth.

So... post some of your poetry. Maybe we can help you out. Pick three songs and take a single element of each and build a new song. But under no circumstance should you give up or become discouraged... hell... your a member of this community now. How can you fail?