[jon_stggt]

When I first picked up a guitar many moons ago, scales were something I never really gave too much thought to. Getting back into guitar in the past year, I've gone through the strumming of chords, my attempt at finger picking (which was the same pattern no matter what the tune untill taking on some of Kirks lessons) and started experimenting with lead solo's.
The results of my solo experiments were quite pleasing.
However, the moment I started practicing pentatonic scales (regarded a must do on many websites) it all started falling into a very restricted pattern with very poor results. I found myself (possibly sub-conscious) restricted as if governed totally by scales.
Now, when playing with blissful ignorance and working my way around the guitar in a manner that sounds (feels) right to me, the results are much better.
So, do I bother with learning scales, or do I simply work my way around the guitar and pick the sounds I like the feel of, rather than giving any thought to what note and scale I may be using.

[krissovo]

I am working my way through Kirk's plane talk so I hope that one day I do not have to use scales. I do use scales as a kind of safty net for something to play if I am stuck or if I want to go into auto pilot where I do not have to think.

[coldethyl]

I would say if your having more success without using scales then go with what you're finding works the best for you.

All guitar players find eventually what works best for them and they invariably go with it. Some find scales useful and others think they're a waste of time.

Kirk is a firm believer in the chord tone method and many of us are likewise finding that quite useful. Some too find that wise use of a scale can also add flair and taste to a riff or solo. Some may even try to combine the best of both worlds.

Everyone is different, which for a guitarist is important if they're to develop their own unique style.

I think that even if you're not going to be heading down the path of scale application, knowing your scales is still a handy thing. On the other hand, knowing the notes on the guitar is perhaps something you should definitely learn and know about.

Anyway, that's just my take on your thread. Hope it helps!

[jon_stggt]

As ever, comments here are a great help. I guess as I progress I may well experiment with combinations of scales and the total random freedom of my fretboard. I'm certainly on course for getting to grips with a little more understanding of chord structure etc by viewing this forum. For the moment i'm spending about half my time on a more disciplined approach by using fingerstyle lessons from Kirk and the other half of my guitar playing time on improvising.
Again, thank for the feedback.

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by jon_stggt

However, the moment I started practicing pentatonic scales (regarded a must do on many websites) it all started falling into a very restricted pattern with very poor results. I found myself (possibly sub-conscious) restricted as if governed totally by scales.

Don't be surprised if this quote ends up in one of Kirk's books or DVDs. You've highlighted, very articulately, the dangers and pitfalls of depending on scales. Kirk has been saying the same thing for years and developed his chord tone method of improvising as an alternative. I recommend you look into that as you seem to have missed it judging by your last comments on whether you should abandon scales in favour of 'feel'.
The chord tone method involves basing your solos around the tones of whichever chord is being played at that time. Every time the chord changes, so do your options and, of course, those chord tones will always harmonise well with the chord being played.

So if an A minor chord is being played, you base your solo around the three notes that make that chord A, C & E. And you can fill in any other notes and treat them as passing notes between the main chord tones. If the chord then changes to E7, you automatically change your main notes to the chord tones of E7, which are E G# B & D. The previous notes A & C (and any others) can still be played but are now treated mainly as passing tones between the important E7 chord tones, G#-B and between B-D.

This method also makes you fully aware of how chords are constructed. That in itself is a worthy goal.

[bmurnahan]

I recently watched Robben Ford's video titled "The Blues And Beyond". If you have not seen it it is worth watching simply to see Robben Ford play the guitar. There is lots of footage of Ford blowing over different tunes.

He starts by talking about soloing over a G7 chord and explains that 3 scale choices he likes over that chord in no particular order are, the mixolydian mode, the minor pentatonic scale but with a twist, the 6th replacing the flat 7 and the blues scale. He then clearly demonstrates playing over the G7 chord using each scale.

He does however make a very important statement, probably the most important on the video. The key to using scales is knowing how they relate to the chord you are playing on. On the video the changes get more interesting as the video progresses and Ford clearly demonstrates playing the changes and his scale choices at the same time.

It's clear that he knows and has practiced these scales but in using them it's also clear he is totally aware of and knows the "chord of the moment" as Kirk likes to put it.

It's in the practicing of the scales that you can become aware of the different tonal colors that are available for use and develop your technique but the chords and the chord tones are still the main focal points.

I continue to be mystified by this one way or the other type of thinking. It seems to me that a student of music would want to learn as much as possible. While I agree that chord tones are the most important aspect of soloing, exploration of scales can lead to different choices in how you decide to color your solos.

Best Wishes,

Bob

[guttertrashsingalong]

lol

[Fretsource]

I think we're all agreed that the problem isn't the use of scales, but in using them like a set formula that will do the job but not much else. Used intelligently and with knowledge and insight of what's actually happening musically, like in that video that Bob described above, is how to use them creatively and avoid the predictable strait-jacket effect that Jon is describing.

[guttertrashsingalong]

yea i agree i think alot of people think the scale pattens they see set out is carved in stone or something.Exploration!