[steve/f]

Hi everyone, how does learning scales help you when you are playing a song.

cheers.

[Fretsource]

Musically, they make you aware of the notes that are most likely to be used in a song. For example, if a song is in the key of G major then most (if not all) of the notes used in that song will be notes from the G major scale. They also let you know which chords are most likely to be used in the song as the chords will also be made from notes of the G major scale. Knowing that, lets you 'guess' the chords of lots of songs with a high degree of accuracy.

Technically, they can provide good practice models for training your fingers to move with speed and precision in ways that are constantly encountered in real music.

Then there's the great 'scales in improvising' debate but I'm keeping well out of that one

[steve/f]

Thanks,

[bmurnahan]

Then there's the great 'scales in improvising' debate but I'm keeping well out of that one

Good idea!

[Justapicker]

I posted this in another thread before, but it bears repeating. This is what Segovia had to say about scales:

The student who wishes to acquire a firm technique on the guitar should not neglect the patient study of scales. If he practices them 2 hours a day, he will correct faulty hand positions, graduallly increase the strength of the fingers, and prepare the joints for later speed studies. Thanks to the independence and elasticity which the fingers develop through the study of scales, the student will soon acquire a quality which is very difficult to gain latter: physical beauty of sound. I say physical, because sonority and its infinite shadings are not the result of stubborn will power but spring from the innate excellence of the spirit.

In order to derive the greatest possible benefit from scale exercises, play them slowly and vigorously at first, more lightly and rapidly later. Many hours of arduous and frequently futile exercises can be condensed into one hour of scales. The practice of scales enables one to solve a greater number of technical problems in a shorter time than the study of any other exercise.

[Chaotic Kittie]

Thanks to the independence and elasticity which the fingers develop through the study of scales,

I don't really agree with "independence". Just practising scales up and down won't bring independence, you'll still follow a pattern. Getting stuck in that pattern is a real pain!

If you intend to learn scales, don't just run them up and down, vary them a lot. Play patterns like 1 3 2 5 7 6 4 instead of 1234567, practise finding them on just 1 string, etc etc. You don't want your muscle memory to lock the positions of the scales, it can lock your creativity when playing too.

Technically they are, as justapicker said, a great way of learning techniques like speed picking, hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides and to control your picking.

Whether scales are any use or not can be discussed, but if you learn a scale, then don't learn it repetitive.

[scotty_b]

I believe scales are important for the following:
1. Scales - especially the major scale - form the basis of theory for all Western music. Breaking music down to it's most basic elements, it is pitch and rhythm. All concepts of pitch can be related back to scales.
2. A student should not only learn patterns, but learn the notes of the scale they are playing. Learning the notes on the instrument is a good thing.
3. Scales help with technical development. As was mentioned earlier, playing scales up and down is not the only thing that should be done. Play through every possible permutation of the scale.
4. Aural development - sing the scale as you practise it, to help train your ear to the sound.
5. Scales are used by many good players for improvisation. We can break down 7-8 note scales into smaller components such as blues/pentatonic scales, arpeggios and intervals. Learn how the scales relate to the chords in the song you are studying.
6. A knowledge of scales/theory can be very useful in composing and arranging tunes. Chords are simply scale tones stacked together, following certain principles of harmony that have been established over the past few hundred years.

[namiguShin]

Originally Posted by Chaotic Kittie

...Play patterns like 1 3 2 5 7 6 4 instead of 1234567...

I don't know any living soul who can play 1234567 two hours per day... LOL

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by steve/f

Hi everyone, how does learning scales help you when you are playing a song.

cheers.

So, please notice how all of these excellent responses tell us that the value of scales is in very many ways beneficial for practicing and learning technicalities and strengthening. Not only practice in a physical sense, but in a ear/mind sense (musically, as fretsource and scotty b are saying).

This is a part of a much wider debate, as you can see. But the one thing to be aware of that scales most likely won't do for you is show you how melodies come from chord formations

This, of course, is debatable since some people learn how to read music and how to read and play scales first. If you are like many who are learning to play through knowledge of chords and rhythms, get Plane Talk!!

Steve

[Chaotic Kittie]

Originally Posted by namiguShin

I don't know any living soul who can play 1234567 two hours per day... LOL

Come to this town and you'll see a few! Though maybe they no longer are living souls. Their souls got bored of the scale runs and left their bodies, so the bodies sit there and continue playing scales...!

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Justapicker

I posted this in another thread before, but it bears repeating. This is what Segovia had to say about scales:

Great quote, justapicker.

[scotty_b]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

This is a part of a much wider debate, as you can see. But the one thing to be aware of that scales most likely won't do for you is show you how melodies come from chord formations

Steve

When I teach scale shapes to students, I also show them how they relate to the arpeggio notes contained within the scale. I emphasise chord tones as 'target notes' when improvising, though I am perhaps more open to 'outside' playing than others.I have taught this way for years - long before I came across PT.
Plane Talk is an excellent book to introduce concepts of playing through changes, and it gives some very useful and very simple-yet-profound insights into the whole topic of improvising.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by scotty_b

When I teach scale shapes to students, I also show them how they relate to the arpeggio notes contained within the scale. I emphasise chord tones as 'target notes' when improvising, though I am perhaps more open to 'outside' playing than others.I have taught this way for years - long before I came across PT.
Plane Talk is an excellent book to introduce concepts of playing through changes, and it gives some very useful and very simple-yet-profound insights into the whole topic of improvising.

It sounds like you have shown how to bridge the two together nicely, as it should be.

I think, though, that many guitarists, whether they've been students of good teachers like yourself or not, often don't have a handle on bridging the gap--they often see either/or, or they have trouble putting it all together. I'm a firm believer in meeting guitarists where they are at, individually, in their learning processes. There is definitely not a 'one size fits all' type of progression in learning, although there are basic truths that must be told. How we go about getting to those truths is always a great conversation :-)

Another good value of PT is that it gives a visual aid to fretboard and anchors. From there, you can go even beyond PT, and enable the student to use the entire fretboard as an anchor!

Steve

[namiguShin]

Originally Posted by Chaotic Kittie

Come to this town and you'll see a few! Though maybe they no longer are living souls. Their souls got bored of the scale runs and left their bodies, so the bodies sit there and continue playing scales...!

LOL

btw. I forgot to say, no offense, mate... I just thougth that Justapicker's quote wasn't talking about playing pure scales, but also these variations you're talking about... I wasn't opposing you in any way...

[Chaotic Kittie]

No offense taken, mate! No, after reading his post again I see that he didn't. My first interpretation was so though, so I just thought I could point out my views on it.