[LeeB]

okay we survived 666 day. I was watching a show that talked about a chord that was forbidden to be played .... the trichord or devil's chord or some such thing?? . Musicians from Mozart to Metallica have rebelled over the years and have played it...

Does anyone know what the chord is? just curious here
I always think an E chord sounds haunting so am guessing it is related

[tcliff]

But there were times in the past when certain kinds of music were banned. More specifically, certain intervals of two or more notes that sounded together or in succession were banned. In the Middle Ages, the Roman Catholic Church banned an interval that we would today write as the notes C and F#, which is called a tritone. In those times, musical instruments were tuned differently than they are today, and our modern instruments can't reproduce this interval exactly. (There are, however, other ways of tuning instruments, still extant today, that do reproduce this interval. The Mesopotamian tunings heard on Memories of Home, for example.) To hear it, or something very close to it, sing the first two notes of Leonard Bernstein's song "Maria" from West Side Story.

The Church called this interval "the devil's interval" or "the devil's chord", and disallowed it in any music. Since the Roman Catholic Church was in those days powerful enough - through fear, mostly - they effectively eliminated it from all subsequent European music.

.....that was a direct quote from here.

[Fretsource]

I think you're referring to the augmented 4th interval or tritone - which is an interval not a chord. For example, the notes C to F# make this interval.
In medieval times It was believed that the Devil was responsible for it. They called it "diabolus in musica" and early church choirmasters were forbidden to use it.
It's now very common though. It's the driving force behind every dominant seventh chord.

[Fretsource]

Tcliff - You beat me to it.
But the source you quoted is a bit unclear.
Yes the tuning is different nowadays - but it's possible to tune a guitar to how that interval used to sound, which is only slightly different anyway.
Also, the church's attempt to ban the use of this interval was largely unsuccessful. Composers were constantly trying to find ways to sneak it into the church choir parts and eventually succeeded.

[737blues]

Typical muso's .... bl#*dy rebellious lot!

[cshude]

The belief was that people hearing it would be induced to commit all sorts of moral mayhem.

[Jove d'Ark]

Respectfully to you,
This does not refer to a "CHORD" as such But rather an INTERVAL. And comes from a time of YORE when the Church Ruled peoples lives with an Iron Gloved Fist. It hails all the way back to POPE Gregory and what has come to be Known as GREGORIAN CHANTS where only PURE Intervals were allowed to be sung. Pure Intevals such as the colourless PERFECT FOURTHS and FIFTHS.
A TRI_TONE Is 3 WHOLE TONES/6 SemiTones and gives a very Destinctive Clash/Tension. In the days when it was only permissable to sing GODLY Tones A.K.A PURE Intervals, the Tritone Sonority was referred to as DIABLO or work of the DEVIL because its Glorious,To Me anyway, Tension/clash was considered abhorrent to the GODLY EAR.
If We Had never challenged this as is our GOD given right as Free thinking descendants of GOD, as is the case with ALL things Religious, Business and Political, we would NEVER have such wonderful music as THE BLUES. Would never have the glorious sonorities of a DIMINISHED Chord and therefore would probably never had the Thrill of Beethoven.
So as in all thing GODLY and FREE THINKING.. AWAYS QUESTION.. ALWAYS CHALLENGE..Stand Up and Speak out against Injustices to HUMANITY.
Our Self Chosen RULERS have Historically FAILED us miserably. And only thanks to those who were once labelled Rebels and today are calsssified as Terrorists, has the everyday man and woman been able to progress.

[Cedric01]

Originally Posted by Fretsource

I think you're referring to the augmented 4th interval or tritone - which is an interval not a chord. For example, the notes C to F# make this interval.
In medieval times It was believed that the Devil was responsible for it. They called it "diabolus in musica" and early church choirmasters were forbidden to use it.
It's now very common though. It's the driving force behind every dominant seventh chord.

Should it be the driving force behind diminished seventh chord shapes instead of dominant seventh chord shapes?

[Fretsource]

Should it be the driving force behind diminished seventh chord shapes instead of dominant seventh chord shapes?

Not really. Yes, that interval also exists in the diminished seventh chord, but more importantly it gave birth to the dominant seventh chord, which shaped western music as we know it today. The diminished seventh chord is far less important to the development of western tonal music than the dominant seventh chord.

[Jove d'Ark]

Hi Fretsource,
Not contradicting just for the sake of any Kudos. My deepest desire is to understand the science of music as easily as I know how to breath, and after many years I still feel like a beginner. As to the DEVIL'S Interval, you are saying that it first and foremost relates to Dom.7 After reading your input I thought that perhaps some 800 years ago when the DEVIL'S Interval was first referred to, That composers of that time may have first chosen the 7th degree to start messing with.
So as to be able to respond to to the above query I went to my piano and played to 3 whole tones/6 semitones above C. 3 Tones ABOVE C lands us at F# or Gb. So it appears the TRI-tone of DEVIL'S Tone was more related to the 5th.
In keeping with Church control of that era which stated that only PURE Intervals were permissable and given that NUMES of The Gregorian chant centred on Tonic- Perfect Forths and Perfect Fifths, the Seventh degree of our modern Major scale was not even involved so to me it would appear that the DEVIL'S Interval has much to do with our modern Diminished Chord. Access a piano if you can and Construct the chord in this manner= C major=1-3-5 Major 7..C-E-G-B
Then repeat this and add Bb=Dom7, then add a double flat 7=A - neccessary in a Dim. In this progression of notes,we do not hear such a dynamic clash.
Now throw in the Tritone F#/Gb. This is remarkeably powerful and stands head and shoulder above the other sonorities which are clamouring for our attention.
The minor sonority the Flat 3 must have come from a later evolution to complete what we now understand as a Fully diminished Chord which is constructed from A Tonic-1 a minor or b3 a diminished 5th and a double flatted 7th,
A fully diminished chord stands like this...1-b3-b5-bb7.
Another pointer here is that the Flat five is the ONLY one referred to as a DIMINISHED Interval, so I think The DEVILS Interval is really the DIMINISHED or flat 5th, not the flat 7.

[Jove d'Ark]

There are, however, other ways of tuning instruments, still extant today, that do reproduce this interval.
Hey tcliff,
Can you elaborate more on this? Why can we not re[produce it to its truest form. Has this to do with bachs TEMPERED Tuning? If So I Would dearly love to hear how a TRITONE really Sounded 800 years ago.

[Fretsource]

The tritone or 'Devil's interval is a diminished fifth (or augmented fourth) - not a seventh. I didn't say it was a seventh interval. I was talking about its presence within the dominant seventh chord. e.g., in the key of C, it's in the dominant chord G7 which comprises the notes G B D F. It lies between B and F and is a diminished fifth.
As Cedric pointed out, it is also present in the diminished seventh chord - but that came much later, and is much less important in the history of music than the dominant seventh.

However at the time that it first made an appearance, there was of course no dominant seventh chord - or any chords. There were only seven notes ABCDEFG and composers found they could all be combined in pairs of intervals spaced a fourth or fifth apart to produce a great new sound. With one glaring exception. B & F sounded completely different. All the others sounded PURE and "PERFECT" - but for some reason known only to God, or the Devil, B and F couldn't be combined. B to F wasn't 'perfect' it was smaller, and so was called 'diminished' - and promptly banned.
The solution was to lower the B by a semitone to increase the size of that diminished interval - and suddenly it was perfect again.
They had to give this altered B a new name to distinguish it from the other B - so they used a lower case form (b) and called it flat. So the note became Bb - to show it had been altered. And that's why the flat sign looks like the letter b.

At the same time, composers were starting to realise that the sound of the diminished fifth wasn't so bad once you got used to it - in fact it had enormous possibilities. So they set about trying to find ways to introduce it against the wishes of the Church and eventually succeeded.

Later when chords such as major and minor chords were developed, it was found an important place in the dominant seventh chord and also in the (less important) leading note diminished triad. At first, just in passing, but then fully from the time of Bach onwards.

[allthumbs]

I have just been schooled. Thanks fret. Very cool.

[LeeB]

Thanks all that have posted... I have learned sumthang here which is always my goal in starting a thread. Now... if I could understand more than an eighth of what has been written I would be laughing .... I do get tones, semi-tones and intervals as opposed to chords and will leave it at that for now .... back to this

[si16]

Originally Posted by allthumbs

I have just been schooled. Thanks fret. Very cool.

Yep. Very interesting indeed. How long did it take for sharps to be introduced and why was it necessary to have them? Why not leave it as Bb rather than have A# as well. Was it to better describe enharmonic notes or is there another reason?