[LeeB]

Okay.. I have been playing for over 2 years and seem to be progressing and surviving without having much of a clue about this Greek confusion. I do know when you play the C-major scale in the first position..something many of us start with..that it begins with an open E string..hence the mode.. E -phryigian (sp?). I think I have this correct??
For those of you that have been playing for a while and have a knowledge of modes.. did this open new doors to your playing.. did lights go off? is it worth learning?

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by LeeB

Okay.. I have been playing for over 2 years and seem to be progressing and surviving without having much of a clue about this Greek confusion. I do know when you play the C-major scale in the first position..something many of us start with..that it begins with an open E string..hence the mode.. E -phryigian (sp?). I think I have this correct??
For those of you that have been playing for a while and have a knowledge of modes.. did this open new doors to your playing.. did lights go off? is it worth learning?

There are so many opinions about how modes work in modern music. There are historical facts and then there are historical uses. To quote one famous guy name Kirk, 'melody loves chord tones'. That's the bottom line for making music these days.

Can you survive without knowing much about modes? Absolutely. All you need to know is the major scale and it's intervals. This is the basis for western music, and it's also where the modes are based. Not that you need the mode knowledge, but it can open up a wider world.

Modal scale use is the modern sense is based upon the different starting note positions of the major scale. Keep the intervals, change the flavor.

Starting the scale in the first position (or what we call the root note) is the Ionian mode, the 2nd, Dorian, the 3rd, Phrygian, the fourth Lydian, the fifth, Mixolydian, the sixth, Aeolian, the seventh, Locrian.

That's all there is to it. There are countless discussions everywhere about the uses of modes, including this site. Do a search and you'll come up with large discussions. With this comes countless opinions. Will knowing this help you? Sure, it will add some flavor to your playing and some understanding about theory. Is it the end-all attitude of playing? Absolutely not. Melody and chord tones are king.

Steve

[Fretsource]

What Steve said

[LeeB]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

Modal scale use is the modern sense is based upon the different starting note positions of the major scale. Keep the intervals, change the flavor.

Starting the scale in the first position (or what we call the root note) is the Ionian mode, the 2nd, Dorian, the 3rd, Phrygian, the fourth Lydian, the fifth, Mixolydian, the sixth, Aeolian, the seventh, Locrian.
Steve

I do not think I have ever seen it put in such simple terms and believe me when it comes to music theory I need "simple" Thanks so much Steve...this is very helpful.
and is this an example? If I am in the Am scale that starts on the 5th fret which of course is also a C major scale and if I use this scale playing in C major would I be in the Phrygian mode given that the C that is on on the 8th fret is a third in the Am scale... or am I still out to lunch???

[solidwalnut]

I forgot to answer a couple of your questions

Originally Posted by LeeB

.. did this open new doors to your playing.. did lights go off? is it worth learning?

I would say that it has opened any doors, just added a bit of flavor here and there. Did lights go off? Yes, in the sense of how I saw how the mode scales are related to the major scale.

Since I don't have some of the metal guys as heros, I'm not swayed by shredding and modal scale play. Sure, I highly admire them and learn from them, but I don't see shredding and modal scale playing as a needed skill for me. But that's just me. Power to any one who is into shredding. I say this all just to say that there are plenty of great guitarist in the world who shrug at the thought of (or just plain don't know anything about) modes.

Steve

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by LeeB

I do not think I have ever seen it put in such simple terms and believe me when it comes to music theory I need "simple" Thanks so much Steve...this is very helpful.
and is this an example? If I am in the Am scale that starts on the 5th fret which of course is also a C major scale and if I use this scale playing in C major would I be in the Phrygian mode given that the C that is on on the 8th fret is a third in the Am scale... or am I still out to lunch???

You're totally welcome.

The modern modal scales are based upon their starting position within the major scale, not the minor scale. It's just that the basic minor scale we use today happens to be the sixth degree (or the Aeolian mode) of the major scale. Somewhat coincidentally.

The Phrygian mode would be the third note interval up from the root. In the key of C, that would be an E note as the starting point.


I hope this helps,

Steve

[LeeB]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

You're totally welcome.

The modern modal scales are based upon their starting position within the major scale, not the minor scale. It's just that the basic minor scale we use today happens to be the sixth degree (or the Aeolian mode) of the major scale. Somewhat coincidentally.

The Phrygian mode would be the third note interval up from the root. In the key of C, that would be an E note as the starting point.


I hope this helps,

Steve

It sure does..thanks again.. so modes for da Major scale only..got it and I am with you.. admire shredders such as Satriani, Eric Johnson, etal...and even like to listen to them on a regualr basis but as for playing, I am acoustic all the way and drawn to blues and folk music more than anything

and a to you

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by LeeB

It sure does..thanks again.. so modes for da Major scale only..got it and I am with you.. admire shredders such as Satriani, Eric Johnson, etal...and even like to listen to them on a regualr basis but as for playing, I am acoustic all the way and drawn to blues and folk music more than anything

and a to you

Right back attchya!

[MarkSaurs]

Steve's comments are the most plainly stated and concise that I have ever heard.

If this is something that you haven't worked with before it may open your eyes and give you a new inspiration for solo work out of differing positions.

Learning ANYTHING is worthwhile. However, it is hard to sound fluid and spontaneous while wondering how to get from the phrygian to the lydian modes. Too much thinking is the bane of playing with any feeling.

In short the knowlege helps but it has to fit into your style or it will always sound forced. Happy Holidays!

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by MarkSaurs

Steve's comments are the most plainly stated and concise that I have ever heard.

If this is something that you haven't worked with before it may open your eyes and give you a new inspiration for solo work out of differing positions.

Learning ANYTHING is worthwhile. However, it is hard to sound fluid and spontaneous while wondering how to get from the phrygian to the lydian modes. Too much thinking is the bane of playing with any feeling.

In short the knowlege helps but it has to fit into your style or it will always sound forced. Happy Holidays!

Thanks Mark--

I've had the benefit from learning from the great theory teachers that hang around here including Fretsource, Monk, Kirk and Bob. There was recently a great thread with many questions that helped me be concise.

Steve

[WernHalen]

Modes is what got me to this site in the first place. i was googling for a site that could give me some advice on playing better lead. I started on the forum and was hooked with the free lessons. not that I have learned a lot of the songs...

I appreciated Kirks style of playing so much that I one day ended up getting PT... I bought the PDF and later won the book with the DVD... (thanks Kirk, Clancy...) Since the book I have never looked back at the modes... I play better leads now, even if it takes me a bit longer than the average maestro but i am happy with my progress...

Now if I can only get a site that teaches you creativity in music...

[Kirk Lorange]

Modes didn't open any doors for me leeB ... if it's melody you're interested in, then modes are not going to be of much help. They're just an overly complicated way of categorizing the 12 notes. If you want to play modes, then learn them all and play them. That's just a matter of memorizing them. I don't think you sound like the kind of player who would enjoy that though, since you say you like acoustic and folk and blues.

As solidwalnut says, this has been covered over and over again on this and other forums. Do a search and you'll see. The modes do come from the major scale as sw describes, but if you're in a key (say C) and you play the aeolian over the Am, the Mixolydian over the G, the Lydian over the F etc., you are not playing 'modally'. You're just playing the C major scale.