[tonedeaf]

Hey all,

I have been hacking on my axe off an on for a couple of years now and after reading different magazines, web articles, books, etc. there's one intangible that sticks out in my mind that some long time pros mention and that is you have to have your timing down to play well. I have read that even if you miss your chord or note/s just stay with the beat and the notes/chords will come later.

Is this one way to teach yourself tempo/timing or is it something that will develop hopefully over time as I bacome more familiar with playing?

Ideas, comments, pros/cons, etc?

Thanks guys,
John

[Stratrat]

Hilch got some good tips in his thread here about practicing. Use a metronome, backing tracks, or play along with your CD player, mp3 player, radio, etc.

I'm not a pro (in fact, couldn't be much farther from it!), but I agree with what you read about timing. I'd rather hear a guitarist miss some notes, buzz a string once in a while, hit the wrong chord from time to time, etc. to the beat, rather than hear a perfectly-played version that had no timing/rhythm. At least to me, the lack of timing is much more disturbing and unsettling, and sounds more amateurish than the occasional "clam".

[Lcjones]

Tempo and timing are really two different thing.

Tempo is the basic beat or rhythm of the song. 4/4 Tempo, 3/4 Tempo and others. Timing is the ability to get your chords and/or notes in the proper "time place" within tempo of a song. Especially so with soloing or finger picking. You may be able to keep rock solid tempo with the rhythm but if your timing is off in a solo it can be devastating to a song. Even more difficult in a band situation. If you have one player who can't keep tempo...... extrapolate from here....

I mentioned in another thread about Gordon Lightfoot's impeccable timing. An absolute joy to listen to. EC, SRV, and of course many others have this incredible sense of timing. The rest of us mere mortals must work on it.

**
LC

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by tonedeaf

Hey all,

I have been hacking on my axe off an on for a couple of years now and after reading different magazines, web articles, books, etc. there's one intangible that sticks out in my mind that some long time pros mention and that is you have to have your timing down to play well. I have read that even if you miss your chord or note/s just stay with the beat and the notes/chords will come later.

Is this one way to teach yourself tempo/timing or is it something that will develop hopefully over time as I bacome more familiar with playing?

Ideas, comments, pros/cons, etc?

Thanks guys,
John

Hey John--

I hope everything's going well today.

We're faced with a huge task of trying to coordinate our left hand with our right hand with what our brain is telling us as our brain tries and interprets what it thinks our ears are telling us...and on!

What you mention as far as the article saying that it's better to just keep going even if you miss the note or chord is absolutely right on.

Practicing along with songs on a stereo is a great way to go; practicing with a metronome helps, too.

But here's the best: practice with a band! The tune and backbeat keeps going even if you don't! Not everyone is in a band, so what do you do??

Well, if you're playing along with a stereo you can think of your practice time in one of two ways: when you mess up you can stop the recording and back it up and try that section again, or you can just keep going and repeating it all until you get it close or get it right.

The article's right in that it's saying that the main rhythm and the back beat of the song is so important when you're playing in a band. And you as the guitarist need to fit into that mix. Otherwise, if you play out of the tempo and timing you are a sore thumb!

But what it's also saying is that even if you're not playing in a band, consider that keeping the rhythm and back beat going is what's really important in conveying the tune.

If practicing with a metronome, be true to your timing. One way of going about learning songs is by understanding the tempo and type of rhythm. Break down the components, understand them, learn them individually and then put them together.

This is the reason why I advocate to first learn how to switch between chords cleanly and quickly without regard to any rhythm. It's a break down of the constituents. Learn to switch cleanly, build up speed slowly. Then figure out the tempo and what the rhythm style is and learn to switch between those chords with good timing.

One benefit of this is that you will learn how to switch between chords so quickly that if/when you make mistakes, you'll easily switch to the correct chord with the measure of the song (if you choose to do so). Or you could stop and then start playing again asap. People will not know that you missed the chord because you are so fast at it.

A studio drummer once told me to relax and lay back on the beat. Of course, this is only possible if the drummer is a time clock! And he is. The idea is to lay back on the drummers beat. Wait for him/her and let them set the tempo; rely on it. Or the metronome!

The same approach can be taken for playing lead lines.

[monk]

Lc,
Tempo is the speed at which a piece of music is played. There are a lot of fancy Italian terms like Largo, Adagio, Moderato, Allegro, Presto and such but basically they refer to levels of Slow, Medium & Fast.

4/4, 3/4, 2/4, 6/8 and such are Time Signatures. The top number tells how many beats are in a measure. The bottom note tells what type of note receives one beat.
Regards,
Monk

[Lcjones]

Thanks for squaring me up!

[tomg123]

I find playing to good backtracks helpful

[tonedeaf]

Wow, great information here guys! Your explainations and suggestions truly make a things a lot clearer.

Strat: A metronome and playing with music seems the way to go. A band is not a reality right now but I would love to get involved one someday!

LC: Yes, GL is some kind of superman listening to his music. His timing is impeccable and something we can only wish for. I just pluck along on some of his tunes and without the tempo and timing it will never sound anything like the orignals. Thanks for explaining the two.

SW: Hey Steve! Everything's fine thanks much for asking.

Your post says quite a bit and I appreciate your explanations, some very good tips there. I look forward to your lessons, very informative.

tomg123: Thanks, I was looking at the backing tracks on this site, there are quite a few to keep my busy.


What comes into focus now for me is when I watch symphony orchestras play, maybe 100 musicians at a time, there really is no drummer just a percussion section that intermittantly keeps a beat. The beat can come from any section especially the string sections. They all follow the conduction's lead and all your responses about how if your are out of time with the band it can sound horrible and can ruin a set makes sense now. The symphonies can't afford to have a section out of time. I'm sure they do now and then but they know how to recover very quickly.

I guess also that my next insight would be chord progressions. Once I can get my timing and of course ear training down chord progressions would be a next step to playing smoothy.

Thanks much,
John

PS. It suggestions like these that make this site so worth while.

[allthumbs]

"
I guess also that my next insight would be chord progressions. Once I can get my timing and of course ear training down chord progressions would be a next step to playing smoothy."
Combine them. That is a good way to work on timing and playing smoothly. Play simple 3 chord songs to start with.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by tonedeaf

...What comes into focus now for me is when I watch symphony orchestras play, maybe 100 musicians at a time, there really is no drummer just a percussion section that intermittantly keeps a beat. The beat can come from any section especially the string sections. They all follow the conduction's lead and all your responses about how if your are out of time with the band it can sound horrible and can ruin a set makes sense now. The symphonies can't afford to have a section out of time. I'm sure they do now and then but they know how to recover very quickly.

John--

When you mentioned this it reminded me of one of the most important items in learning timing: learn to follow your internal time clock. Internalize the beat and rhythm you're trying to play. Let it come from within.

I know, I know, it all sounds like Zen or something, but what I mean is that timing and rhythm comes just as much from your heart and gut as they do your brain and hand coordination. Then next time you strum a chord, imagine your heart and gut directing you. Coordinate your breathing. Sharply inhale before the downbeat every few measures.

Orchestral players follow the conductor and take his or her cues so they can all be together on the down beat of the measure. The conductor regulates volume levels and cuttoffs. If a player is a little off, they can take the cue from the conductor and get right back with the program and 'catch up' or drop out so they can play the correct note on the next downbeat.

But as for note duration and time between beats, that is something that is internalized by the player. They rely on their musicianship. While they're playing, they are humming or singing or otherwise reproducing the song and timing and tempo in their head.

When they play, they are playing a replica of what they feel is the best representation of their part as they continue listening to their interpretation in their brain along with the constant feedback of listening to what they're actually playing. This is how they develop their ear!

All of the above applies to you and me when we play the guitar. The metronome can help you keep time and tell you when the next downbeat will be. But other than that, it's not a very good conductor. But YOU are! Use the combination of the metronome and your interpretation as you learn the feedback loop.

Timing is not just a matter of learning to be steady. It's a combination of consistency and your personal expression!

Steve

[tonedeaf]

Sound advice Steve. I have heard about the internalizing of music and how it can begin to flow and you get into one of the floating timeless moments, yes Zen. Again well said.

I am seeing that I have to get to that speical place where I really really hear the music and all it's components.


Thanks,
John

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by tonedeaf

I am seeing that I have to get to that speical place where I really really hear the music and all it's components.

Yes, yes, yes. All the best to you,

Steve

[LMay]

(IMHO) Being a drummer in addition to teaching guitar, my opinion is that timing and rhythm are AT LEAST half of music.

My students regularly practice metronome exercises for scales and rhythms. For example, you might try setting the metronome at 60 beats per minute and then practice a scale this way: 1. 2 times through with 2 notes per beat 2. 3 times through with 3 notes per beat (this can be tricky because the notes that fall on the beat will be different each time through) 3. 4 times through with 4 notes per
beat (for speed and endurance). Then gradually increase the metronome speed.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by LMay

(IMHO) Being a drummer in addition to teaching guitar, my opinion is that timing and rhythm are AT LEAST half of music...

I'd give it more than half. It's the basement of learning to present and understand music.

[carol m]

I have a couple of timing questions. What is the 'back beat' as opposed to the 'beat'?

And the other is about Sting's (yeah I know, but I'm not a 'fan' of his in general) singing in the song Message in a Bottle. For me the striking thing about this song has always been the 'singing beat' being a long way 'behind' the instrumental beat in most of the song. At first I found this irritating, but at the same time it is the 'thing' which makes it memorable, and what makes it 'stick' in your brain - and I now I find its the 'best' thing about the song.

(Now that I'm trying to remember the song in my head, I wonder if it is ahead of the beat, but I don't think so, I think its behind the beat)

I believe a) that it really is out of synch with the beat, and its not just me having dodgy ears, and b) that it is quite deliberate.
Am I right?