[scotty_b]

It is Birelli Lagrene, and boy can this guy play!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQmNJ...elated&search=

[seagull]

The guy has some amazing fingers.

[allthumbs]

He has skills for sure.

[Kirk Lorange]

Sublime playing! Man oh man ... and he just LOVES those chord tones!

[scotty_b]

He recorded a version of the Stevie Wonder tune 'Isn't she Lovely' at some stage with another Gypsy Jazz guitarist, and he sounds like Al Di Meola on steroids on that - hyperspeed but fat tone on an acoustic, sounds like he is digging in so much he could break a string at any moment.

[737blues]

Even his chord vamping before he got into his solo was impressive ....

[skinnybloke]

He's just mucking around till he gets the nod, then he goes............ off!

[cshude]

Whoa- that was really something. Add another one to m y list of heroes...

[Teddy Madison]

OK, so no more excuses for not playing 1/1000th notes with a pick LOL.

Wayne

[bmurnahan]

I'm sure this guy as been mentioned here before. Here is a link to Joscho Stephan.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koX0ZtUOYNM

Kirk's right on the money as usual about the use of chord tones. All of the jazz greats make extensive use of arpeggios (chord tones) and are masters at playing changes. There is also lots of scale usage as well.

I don't see how anyone can attain that level of technical expertise without serious time spent practicing scales. Any thoughts?

Bob

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by bmurnahan

There is also lots of scale usage as well.

I didn't really hear any real scales in that, Bob. What parts are you referring to? I certainly heard some chromatic passing runs between chord tones, but no real scales.

I don't see how anyone can attain that level of technical expertise without serious time spent practicing scales. Any thoughts?

Again, not to be contrary, but it seems to me serious time spent practicing arpeggios is how he's achieved his expertise ... he seems to me to be the perfect example of a player who hasn't spent his time practicing scales

[bmurnahan]

Again, not to be contrary, but it seems to me serious time spent practicing arpeggios is how he's achieved his expertise ... he seems to me to be the perfect example of a player who hasn't spent his time practicing scales

There are some examples of a scale straight up if you listen closely. At about 40 seconds you can find one example. Also, use of the chromatic scale, and extensive use of arpeggios. I really don't see how you can say this guy hasn't practiced any scales.

I am not against practicing chord tones and arpeggios. In fact, I agree with you 100% that they are the most important thing to know. Transcribe any jazz solo and you will find scale runs however.

You might look at it and say, those are chord tones surrounded by scale tones because that's how you have trained yourself to look at the fretboard.

This guy can only play the chromatic scale as fast as he does because he has practices it a million times. In fact, the only ay you can play anything fast is through repetition. Same for his scale runs and arpeggios.

Are you a Tommy Emmanuel fan. Do you think he has practiced scales? What about The Hunt?

I am not trying to take away from the ideas presented here about the use of chord tones. I just think that's only part of the picture. I know I will never change your mind.

My question was of a serious nature. Do you think you can reach that level of technical expertise without practicing scales. If I understand Kirk correctly, he says yes, just practice arpeggios. Any other thoughts?

Bob

[Kirk Lorange]

Here we go again! The Bob v Kirk debate.

I think anyone who wants to become proficient on any instrument should practice everything -- chords, scales, arpeggios -- it's all good, all necessary, all hard work. Obviously Bireli, the guy in this clip, has practiced long and hard at all aspects of his craft to become as proficient as he is. But in this case, it seems to me that he has concentrated his efforts on chords, not scales, because he overwhelming makes use of chord tones to create the beautiful melodies that ooze out of this track. I don't hear him running up and down scales. I hear him defining the chord structure of the piece, one at a time, as they come and go. It seems to me that if he was a scale player, he'd be playing them! He's not, though, he's playing melody using chord tones to do so, because his taste in music -- gypsy jazz -- is the epitome of this approach to making music. Naturally, from time to time, he wants to increase the resolution of his lines, make them denser, so he dips into the underlying scales to do so, but I bet he's not thinking scales, he's just connecting up his chord tones.

There are countless examples of players out there who do almost exclusively rely on their scale knowledge to 'let loose' like Bireli does in this clip and I would have no argument if you had picked one of them to comment about practicing scales, but not this guy.

Once again, though, I have never ever advocated NOT learning, practicing scales or using scales. I have only ever suggested to those who can't turn them into melody to let the chords themselves point the way to those strong melody notes. Look at all those scales from a chord point of view, and you'll see how they all merge into one, how all those Greek modes and pentatonics become meaningless once you can see ALL 12 notes at once.

Here's a recent quote from the PlaneTalkers Forum, from someone who has started thinking chords rather than scales, and who said it very succinctly:

By using the 'Chord Of The Moment' approach, I understand modes better than ever - and why I no longer need to think about them!

[scotty_b]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

but I bet he's not thinking scales, he's just connecting up his chord tones.

I enter this debate with fear and trepidation, as it may well become a head-butting contest, but here goes ...
Bireli has such mastery he is not thinking scales at all. To be honest I doubt he is even thinking. His command of this style is such that it just flows out. I would guess that Bireli probably has a lot of theoretical knowledge, but that his influences (ie Django) probably had no idea. It would not surprise me if Django didn't know anything about theory. I am only making this assumption from the little I have read about him, and will happily concede I may be in error. I imagine that Django just responded to sounds in his head, and Bireli is doing the same. How Bireli arrived there I do not know - whether he just had those sounds in their or he studied 'formally' - but he is way beyond the constraints we place on scale construction and harmonic relationships in an academic context.
Players such as Larry Carlton and Robben Ford have extensive knowledge of harmony/scales/arpeggios. I find their playing very melodic, particularly Larry's. They can analyse their playing from several different perspectives, one of which is the underlying harmony/scale relationship. This does not mean that they simply run and up and down scales, even though they know them intimately.
Such knowledge can be valuable, but how we choose to employ it is where it really counts. Kirk's style of playing is wonderful, and it works for him very well. I do not presume to speak for him, but his playing and approach is 'Kirk'. It may not work for others, and that is where subjectivity comes into all of this.
Some of the guys on here love Yngwie. I don't. Some love Hendrix. I don't. It doesn't mean my influences and inspirations are 'right'and they are 'wrong', no more than I like tomatoes very much and other people don't. From what I have gathered, Kirk's approach is to have players consider very closely the underlying harmony and respond. I would imagine that Kirk would consent that this is just one approach, albeit a very effective one.
Bob, I do not believe that I have had the pleasure of hearing you play, so I have no appreciation of your musical vocabulary.
As far as technical expertise is concerned, scales are valuable for that. From my perspective one should not just practice scales as one note following another (notes in a line) but in all permutations available.Practice them sequentially, and intervalically, along the length of a string, or on non-adjacent strings. However, there are far more options that that for developing technical facility, and it really comes back to what one wishes to play and sound like.
I shall crawl back under my rock now....

[737blues]

I'm just going to say, well said scotty! ...... and make revolutions for Flank speed and open water.