[Noodler]

I've noticed in recent years that Heavy Metal fans have started really classifying metal into sub-genres. Most of these genres are new to me and the names are confusing. eg What's the difference between Grindcore and Metalcore? Why is Black Metal considered metal at all? Some black metal I've heard is all tom-tom drums and synthesizers (eg Summoning). What's the difference between industrial/ death and black metal?

I did see a movie called "Metal: A Headbanger's Journey" that divided it all up, but I'm still mystified.

Also, can you still call yourself a metal fan if you're not up on this new jargon, or do you leave it to the youngins? (I'm only 33 BTW)

[starsailor]

Hi Noodler, Here's a pretty comprehensive list of Metal Genres, and definitions, I was surprised at how many there are, it's musicians experimenting as they've done for centuries and in Rockn' Roll since the Fifties, Heavy Metal bands like Rush experimented in the 70s and 80s they started off sounding a bit like Led Zeppelin then went off at a complete tangent, you can still call yourself a Metal fan, you could even make up your own Genre, still a few gaps, maybe one of the subgenres has it but there's still a gap for BluesMetal, DiscoMetal (How cool would that be ) or LatinMetal or WorldMetal that would definitely be cool (I'm claiming ownership of that one )

Heavy metal subgenres - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grindcore and MetalCore are quite similar as they derive in some ways from punk Rock but there is a difference in the music construction.

Metalcore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Grindcore - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Heavy stuff Noodler

[Noodler]

Great link Starsailor, especially since it has examples of bands to listen to.

I saw Kyuss support Metallica years ago and never realised they were "important." I remember thinking they sounded "nice." Just has another listen on iTunes...still nice.

[starsailor]

Originally Posted by Noodler

Great link Starsailor, especially since it has examples of bands to listen to.

I saw Kyuss support Metallica years ago and never realised they were "important." I remember thinking they sounded "nice." Just has another listen on iTunes...still nice.

That was the best link I found Noodler, there are a lot of bands to check out so it is easier to get a handle on the different Genres, it seems to me if you take out GlamMetal and ProgMetal that Punk is the Pivotal moment in Metal Music I think that Genre smashed music wide open, in the UK a lot of the bands couldn't play their instruments when they started but knew what kind of music they liked a good example is the Clash they experimented with different Genres Mick Jones was a big Reggae Fan so that was worked in to them Sandanista was quite an experimental Album, as the Magnificent Seven they even did a rap song, I honestly believe that Punk opened peoples eyes to the possibilities and made people realise you could go anywhere you want to with music, it's as important as the dawn of Rockn'Roll in my opinion as Music was getting bogged down in Prog Rock bands doing Concept Albums that went on forever and the rot had set in, Punk rescued Rock music from the Art Colleges and took it back to the street

[Noodler]

I like my punk mixed with a very healthy helping of pop. eg Let's Dance to Joy Division by The Wombats. It has some Clash about it as a track. I'm trying to get that tone at the moment, but I can't describe it other than "strumming a Tele hard."

[Stratrat]

Pfeh. I think music is "over genre-ized" these days. Classic rock, progressive rock, hard rock, soft rock, pop rock, southern rock, glam rock, arena rock, 80's rock, modern rock; Black metal, death metal, industrial metal, metalcore, grindcore; Classic country, pop country, modern country, Bakersfield country, bla, bla, bla, bla.

I want to enjoy music when I listen to it - not ponder which genre it sits in and/or whether others think listening to that particular genre or sub-genre is "cool" or "hip".

I can broadly/loosely classify certain genres of music as follows - of course it's a gross over-generalization, but it takes much less thought:

If it rocks, it's rock.

If it twangs, it's country.

If there's a banjo, a mandolin and no drums, it's bluegrass.

If it goes chugga chugga wheedly wheedly, it's metal.

If it's three power chords strummed hard and no guitar solo, it's punk.

If the 808 kick overpowers everything else, it's hip-hop.

If it's repetitive, dizzying, makes me motion sick and has 20-minute songs that all sound just like the last one, it's techno.

If there's profanity, any lyrics about narcotics or firearms, and/or any reference whatsoever to Compton, Watts, Long Beach or any other 'hood in general, it's gangsta rap.

[starsailor]

I don't really know who comes up with all the Sub-Genres I assume it's the new bands that come through saying it's this kind of music but we've added something and we call it this, or it could be journalists or managers, Metal does seem to have an awful lot of them compared to other genres must be a desire to be original it does get harder as Rock'n'Roll wends it's merry way through the Decades

[cshude]

I'm with Stratrat. Right on, bro!

[knight46]

+2 to Mac and Chris

[TomSlatter]

Originally Posted by starsailor

I don't really know who comes up with all the Sub-Genres I assume it's the new bands that come through saying it's this kind of music...

Genre names are quite interesting. For a start, they often have nothing to do with the style of the music. Led Zep are often referred to as heavy metal, but Jimmy Page objected to that. Plus even when they did turn their guitars up, they were never more than a blues rock band.
(I almost typed 'dull blues rock band'. But saying you find Led Zep boring on a guitarists forum might be a bad move... aw what the hell)

Heavy metal, if you're gonna try and define it musically, is a move away from blues rock.

Or grunge. The 'big four' grunge bands, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden and Alice in Chains simply didn't play the same kind of rock music. Grunge was a marketing contruction.

Or power metal, that's had two different definitions over the years.

Or punk - punk could be thought of as an attitude, not a style of music. After all, musically punk has been around for a very long time, but the anti-everything-including-punk-itself seems to be limited to the Sex Pistols - reforming for the money, and never respecting anything including their fans is about as punk as you can get.

And there's a whole lot of racism in genre names too. Black music becomes 'urban', music from diverse and interesting cultures becomes 'world'.

It's mostly marketing, with a hint of tribalism (I'm not a heavy metal fan, I'm a hard-power-emo-electro-mop-core fan!)

[starsailor]

Originally Posted by TomSlatter

Genre names are quite interesting. For a start, they often have nothing to do with the style of the music. Led Zep are often referred to as heavy metal, but Jimmy Page objected to that. Plus even when they did turn their guitars up, they were never more than a blues rock band.
(I almost typed 'dull blues rock band'. But saying you find Led Zep boring on a guitarists forum might be a bad move... aw what the hell)

Heavy metal, if you're gonna try and define it musically, is a move away from blues rock.

Or grunge. The 'big four' grunge bands, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Soundgarden and Alice in Chains simply didn't play the same kind of rock music. Grunge was a marketing contruction.

Or power metal, that's had two different definitions over the years.

Or punk - punk could be thought of as an attitude, not a style of music. After all, musically punk has been around for a very long time, but the anti-everything-including-punk-itself seems to be limited to the Sex Pistols - reforming for the money, and never respecting anything including their fans is about as punk as you can get.

And there's a whole lot of racism in genre names too. Black music becomes 'urban', music from diverse and interesting cultures becomes 'world'.

It's mostly marketing, with a hint of tribalism (I'm not a heavy metal fan, I'm a hard-power-emo-electro-mop-core fan!)

Good post TomSlatter, when you look at Music Genres and people who prefer to be Genre specific it goes way beyond the music it's a whole lifestyle, people who are really into Country Music in the UK will dress in the whole outfit Denim, check shirts, Cowboy hat and of course the boots it looks a bit out of Place in the high street but it's a statement of who they are, Punk, Emo, Grunge, Heavy Rock etc. all have their own Uniform and it is literally a whole lifestyle, the Punk thing with the Sex Pistols was more about Malcolm Mclaren and Vivien Westwood using the Band as a marketing tool for their clothes and together with the band to promote their political ideas.

Vivienne Westwood (born 1941) and the Postmodern Legacy of Punk Style | Thematic Essay | Heilbrunn Timeline of Art History | The Metropolitan Museum of Art

Youngsters take their Genres and sub genres quite seriously it really is a statement of who they are as a person, some go mainstream some choose an alternative or sub culture and the Music lifestyle and clothes all clarify their identity, adults too do this we are all bought up in different cultures and have a different sense of Identity as society has become more multicultural more crossovers take place in all aspects of life and sub genres in music do play their part in emphasizng culture and Identity shifts in society, it's all music it's true but our taste in music does serve to tell people a bit about who we are as individuals, music is very much an important part of culture and identity.

[TomSlatter]

Originally Posted by starsailor

Youngsters take their Genres and sub genres quite seriously it really is a statement of who they are as a person, some go mainstream some choose an alternative

Yeah, alternative is an interesting one - it's mainstream rock, it's a lot of different rock styles and styles of dress, it's not rebelious in the slightest any more, but it's still sold as 'alternative,' without ever clearly being an alternative to anything.

And to return vaguely to the original topic. Did some someone say grindcore? Here's some grindcore MySpace.com - Carcass - Liverpool, UK - Metal / Grindcore / Death Metal - www.myspace.com/carcass Love that band. Rot'n'roll!

[Noodler]

I relate to what Starsailor said about identitiy. Over time I'm becoming more and more specific like that. I'm getting into rockabilly as a scene, and have started going to the sort of events where people get dressed up in 1950's gear, cowboy hats, pinup dresses etc. It's in the city in 2008 (inappropriate, as SS said), but everyone there "gets it." And there is a whole big "family" of people who like it.

Tomslatter, are you saying that grunge was pure marketing as an idea (manufactured)? Or did it exist and then was exploited?

"Alternative" is hard to define, but you know it when you hear it. You have to resort to saying, "well, it's what they play on JJJ." Tends to be aimed specifically at 20-30's?????
Like mainstream but not trying to be radio friendly? That is tough!

This group is cool. Got good chugs, leave a bit of space, and have spme technical skills in an Yngwie way:

MySpace.com - Necrophagist - Death Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/necrophagistde

[Fat Eddie]

When does plain old rock Rock become metal? What would you consider a mainstream band like the Foo Fighters to be? And why do you think so many of the new young American "Rock" bands are so bland? There was some sort of "Top 100 Rock Singles of the 21st Century" on one of the music channels the other night (admittedly that is only eight years worth of songs to choose from) and I watched from about no. 45 down to no.30 and fell asleep, they all seem to have the same generic sort of smooth, heavy sound with insipid lyrics and vocals. Perhaps it's the effect of the mainstream and there is good stuff elsewhere but I couldn't imagine any other decade of the last fifty years producing such a dearth of quality in the top selling records of the time.

[TomSlatter]

Oh Grunge absolutely existed. How much of it was a deliberate marketing construction and how much of it sprang up 'naturally' I don't know. But I do know that the genre of grunge:- the way of dressing, the almost punky attitude - a reaction against the ultra produced hair-metal bands that were mainstream at the time - was definitely real.

But the bands who played grunge weren't playing the same music. Pearl jam were a straight ahead rock outfit at the time, Nirvana were Pixies-esque punk, Alice in Chains and Soundgarden nearer to Heavy metal. It was rock, but different styles.

My point being that style and genre don't mean the same thing.

When does rock become heavy metal? There's no clear distinction, but I'd say if the harmony is more modal than blues, if the distorted guitars drive things, if the lyrics address masculinity and/or power in some way you've probably metal.

Rock will use more full note chords rather than power chords, is more likely to use standard pop music chord progressions, will sing about love, and in rock you don't necessarily have to be able to play.

Of course there are loads of bands that have rock and metal elements. It's pretty hard to make clear distinctions.

And here's another band: MySpace.com - SIKTH - UK - Progressive / Metal / Rock - www.myspace.com/sikth