15 replies to this topic

[Chelle E.]

I'm lost on the question of key when capoed.
If I am capoed on the 2nd fret, BUT I'm playing the I IV V7 chords for key of A, (A,D,E7) to me, I would tell someone I'm in the key of A capoed at the 2nd. I'd make a note on my song sheet "Key of A, capo-2". And I would "think" A.
But what actual Key am I in pitchwise?
Since the capo is 2 frets higher than normal tuning, (a whole step higher?), I'm actually playing in B?
I can't get a grip on this. I'm trying to understand the guitar.
Thanks anyone.

[scotty_b]

Hi
Yes it would be the key of B.

[solidwalnut]

Chelle E., on 05 October 2010 - 01:35 PM, said:

I'm lost on the question of key when capoed.
If I am capoed on the 2nd fret, BUT I'm playing the I IV V7 chords for key of A, (A,D,E7) to me, I would tell someone I'm in the key of A capoed at the 2nd. I'd make a note on my song sheet "Key of A, capo-2". And I would "think" A.
But what actual Key am I in pitchwise?
Since the capo is 2 frets higher than normal tuning, (a whole step higher?), I'm actually playing in B?
I can't get a grip on this. I'm trying to understand the guitar.
Thanks anyone.

Yep, you got it. The actual key, if your guitar is tuned to A440, is B. You're playing in the key of B, and you'd want to communicate with other musicians that this is the key you're playing. But most musicians are going to 'get it' if you tell them you're playing the I, IV, V7, playing A, capo 2. Below, forgive me in advance if I'm covering something you already know.

Here's the distinction, or the cause of confusion:

There's the term 'chord' to speak of the musical chord (three notes minimum, with the 1, 3 and 5 notes making the music chord a 'major' chord) and then there's the guitar chord form. Let's just take the chord form of A. If you play the A form in the second fret, you're creating the A musical chord at the same time you're using the A chord form on the fretboard:

xO222O

If you slide that formation up the neck two frets and barre your finger across all the strings, then you're still playing the A chord form, but musically, you're playing a B major musical chord now instead of an A major musical chord

x24442

Does this make sense?

Just to paint the picture a little more, the guitar fretboard is layed out so there are 5 basic chord forms: CAGED (the example is good to see by using a C chord):



If you were to play a C chord form at the first three frets, you are also playing a C musical chord. You could instead choose to play that same musical C chord by then playing the A form of it by making the A shape in the 5th fret and barring across in the third fret. Then comes the G form, then the E form, then the D form. Then the forms start all over again at the 12th fret. They're all connected together and have common notes. These forms follow each other up the neck and always in this same order. No matter which form you begin with, the next form in the sequence follows up the neck: CAGED or AGEDC or GEDCA or EDCAG or DCAGE

Just to try and not be too confusing, if you place a capo on the guitar, that is the same exact thing as moving the nut. The capo effectively becomes the nut.

Hope your day is good,

Steve

[jdpaz]

the most important information is what key you're playing in --- not which chord shapes you're using. So if you said you were playing in the key of B, someone may play that with no capo, another may put a capo on the ninth fret and use the D shape for her I chord, while you have your capo on two. All of you would be able to play together in the key of B even though you're setup was different.

[solidwalnut]

jdpaz, on 06 October 2010 - 12:40 PM, said:

the most important information is what key you're playing in --- not which chord shapes you're using. So if you said you were playing in the key of B, someone may play that with no capo, another may put a capo on the ninth fret and use the D shape for her I chord, while you have your capo on two. All of you would be able to play together in the key of B even though you're setup was different.

True, that's what's important as far as learning to play together with others. But learning the 'why' of the shapes is an important learning tool. They're both important. You can just put a capo on and not know why. Or, if other players wanted you to play in a certain key, you could decide where to place the capo.

[jdpaz]

Yeah, I wasn't disagreeing with you, SW. You made invaluable points. Just offering some more perspective.

[solidwalnut]

Thanks jdpaz.

[Chelle E.]

Thanks everyone for your enlightenments. I was a keyboard player and could see the chord shapes without effort because they all repeat up and down the keyboard. Since there was no "moveable" keyboard (like a capo), the key was The Key you were in, period.

But looking at the fretboard now, I see only a lot of Frets that mean nothing at this point.

Simple chord shapes are easily remembered from old guitar days, but there is no "understanding" of how to move around on all those frets up the neck. (I have the sliderule and I've poked around using the AED shapes up the neck.)

Here's my writing steps: (embarrassing) I hear a melody in my head, sing the root note, pluck a lot of notes to find that root note (identify the key), ensure it's singable, then if it's not a familiar chord shape, or in an unplayable key for me, I go to the capo and locate that same root pitch somewhere else and play easy shapes I know well. Then wonder what the heck key I'm actually in. But I now know one fret equals a half-step so that helps.

My point: I just want my bearings. To know what key I'm actually in, want to analyze the chord progressions, then work on (trying) to play something "musical".

Thanks for taking the time to help and for the links.

[jdpaz]

Chelle E, you're not changing keys when you put the capo on somewhere that the chord shapes are easier. It's still the same key.

Look at the pic below: See how if you put your capo on the 8th fret and played an "E shape" you'd be playing a C chord (those dots are the 1's, 3's, and 5's of the C scale) --- still in the key of C. If the next chord in your progression was an F chord (looking at your slide rule) you'd see that you need to play an "A shape" when you're at the 8th fret. That's the IV chord of key of C. Next, throw down a bar "A shape" on the 10th fret and you have a G chord (two semi-tones up from F) --- the V chord of the key of C.



Anyway, I hope this is answering what you're wondering.

[Chelle E.]

jdpaz

I hadn't seen your last response until just now. That was very helpful. I do basically understand keys and chords, by automatically picturing a keyboard and seeing the notes in mind first. What a job it is to translate that onto six strings with all those frets.

But it's nice to know I can bring questions here and everyone helps out. Thank you.

Chelle

[eddiez152]

Chelle,
Here is something that may help you see it and hear it .
1. Pick chord (A) for instance in your request (strum) you will find it on the guitar body on the right
2. Now Turn Capo setting on.
3. Capo (3) 1=Nut 2=1st fret 3= 2nd frett and so on
4. Click search and it will show you the current chord played with capo Bmaj
5. Click strum to hear it.
By the way, you can save it . You will find that on the left side of the guitar body
Will will need to go to chord lookup each time you ask for a new chord and follow steps 1 thru 5.

So
A=Bmaj
D=Emaj
E7=F#7 or Gb7

http://www.chordbook...uitarchords.php

Hope that lets you see it and hear it.

[Chelle E.]

Thanks eddie, neat app.

[Tekker]

Another way to understand capos is to figure out each note in the chord and write them down on paper because this will give you something that you can visualize and understand more easily. You won't be dealing with obscure frets or strings anymore but notes.

If you know the notes of the open strings (E A D G B E) then you can count up each string to figure out each individual note that you are playing in any given chord.

For example, if you play an "A major" with no capo, then you have the notes A E A C# E and eliminating the repeating notes, this reduces to A C# E which is an "A major" chord (like we expected).

Now put the capo on the 2nd fret and play the same "A major shaped" chord and count up each string again to see what chord you are actually playing. Doing this you will be playing B F# B D# F# and eliminating the repeating notes reduces to B D# F# which is a "B major" chord.

So as you can see, even though you are still playing an "A shape" you are no longer playing an "A chord" because all the notes have changed. What chord you are playing is determined by the notes you are playing, not the shape. In the same way, on a keyboard C major has the same "shape" as F major and a G major (where you play every other white key) but they have different notes and therefore they are different chords. So spend some time going through each chord, figuring out the notes in them and how the notes change when you move the capo up/down the neck while playing the same shape and the peaces will come together.

-tkr

[Chelle E.]

Tekker, on 14 March 2011 - 06:21 AM, said:

Another way to understand capos is to figure out each note in the chord and write them down on paper because this will give you something that you can visualize and understand more easily. You won't be dealing with obscure frets or strings anymore but notes.

If you know the notes of the open strings (E A D G B E) then you can count up each string to figure out each individual note that you are playing in any given chord.

For example, if you play an "A major" with no capo, then you have the notes A E A C# E and eliminating the repeating notes, this reduces to A C# E which is an "A major" chord (like we expected).

Now put the capo on the 2nd fret and play the same "A major shaped" chord and count up each string again to see what chord you are actually playing. Doing this you will be playing B F# B D# F# and eliminating the repeating notes reduces to B D# F# which is a "B major" chord.

So as you can see, even though you are still playing an "A shape" you are no longer playing an "A chord" because all the notes have changed. What chord you are playing is determined by the notes you are playing, not the shape. In the same way, on a keyboard C major has the same "shape" as F major and a G major (where you play every other white key) but they have different notes and therefore they are different chords. So spend some time going through each chord, figuring out the notes in them and how the notes change when you move the capo up/down the neck while playing the same shape and the peaces will come together.

-tkr

Thank you Tekker,

Figuring out each note in each chord is the hard work I need to do but have put off honestly. I know What the notes are, but not Where they are on guitar. The last part of your post was a good reminder to buckle down. Notation would be a Very good thing to get back to, relating it to guitar this time.

Chelle E.

[eddiez152]

Great post and lots of good advice.

[Tekker]

You're welcome Chelle.

It's funny, I was just messing around at my keyboard (I dabble a little bit with keyboard) and it hit me... A way to relate the guitar capo to the keyboard is the transpose button on a keyboard. On the keyboard if you transpose from "C" to "D" then when you play a "C" chord you are actually playing a "D" because all of the notes in the chord have been moved up two notes. That is pretty much the same idea with a capo. If you put a capo on the 2nd fret (move up two notes) and play a "C" chord you are actually playing a "D" because all of the notes in the chord have been moved up two notes.

If your keyboard has a transpose feature on it you can try this out on your keyboard and guitar to compare the two. Transpose your keyboard to D (up two notes) and play a C chord. Then put the capo on the 2nd fret and play a C chord... Both of these are actually "D" chords even though it appears that you're playing "C" in both instances.

So it may help to think of the capo as doing essentially the same function as the keyboard's transpose button, it allows you to use the same chord shapes but play in different keys without having to change the chord shapes.

-tkr