[Noodler]

I quote a fellow member here:

I think the digital amps have the most versatility. the Line 6 and Vox digital amps cover a huge range of tones and give 90% of the real tube tone.

I'd like to +1 that.

It seems like solid state amps are often poo-pooed by the guitar fraternity, but I think they're great. I definitely include the Vox Valvetronix in "Solid State" despite it's single 12AX7 because both the pre and power amps are still solid state, it uses the tube to help in modelling, not as a proper power amp valve (it's actually in the power amp stage, not a preamp as some seem to think).

Anyway, solid state and modelling amps are:
1. Versatile. My GDEC can go from Blackface Fender to Mesa Boogie high gain within seconds.
2. Can have a range of onboard effects, including some you could probably never afford like rotating speakers, tape echo. The number of effects and tweakability can be staggering.
3. They are light to carry. Don't need 2 big trannys.
4. NO maintenance. You buy it. You take it home and play it. No retubing/ rebiassing. After 15 years you might need some re-soldering or a capacitor changed here or there.
5. Features out the wazoo. mp3 player in. My GDEC slows phrases down to half-speed so I can work them out be ear easier.
6. Tone is not dependent on volume. You can be squealing away on a high gain setting while the kids are alseep upstairs.
7. Generally very clear tone which is great for clean or for metal, for jazz where note clarity is important.
8. The Roland JC. Speaks for itself.
9. Soooo affordable. You can get very close to tones of a variety of amps for cheaper than just one.
10. Most non-musicians aren't so critical of tone as to recognise that, "hey, that's not a real Bassman!" Main thing is the song.
11. Forgiving. Modelling amps, especially for beginners and intermediates can be more fun because they can help to cover up imperfections in your playing (eg touching an adjacent string in a chord when you shouldn't), so you can rock out more!
12. Many now come with built-in metronome, chromatic tuner, even backing tracks (I love my GDEC).

I'm sure there's more. It seems like we all listened to music from the 60's and 70's like Led Zep, ACDC, the Beatles, Stones, etc and a rock mythology was born which is bassed around just a few amps: the Marshall stack (in various models), the Fender Twin and the Bassman, depending on the style. Those amps are all great, but very loud and very expensive. So we talk about tube tone, but I'm sure that some modern valve amps are weaker imitations of the classics than some modellers now.

Over to you.

[SlickCat]

I think for Price/Portability/Amount of tones/ Amount of effects/not to mention some great tones, Modellers are a great choice.
Last time I seen Neil Giraldo (pat Benetars Guitarist) He was playing through a Line 6 Vetta. He sounded Killer!!

[Noodler]

I saw Neil Geraldo do "We Belong" acoustically. It seemed like he and Pat Benetar were married? She said she had to go home with him. WHy do they call him Spider?

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by Noodler

I saw Neil Geraldo do "We Belong" acoustically. It seemed like he and Pat Benetar were married? She said she had to go home with him...

They are married. Have been since the early 80's, IIRC.

Back on the original topic - I'm no "hater" of SS amps at all - in fact, I own two of them (Roland Micro Cube and Vox AD30VT), along with 3 tube amps (Dr. Z Maz 18, Fender Deluxe Reverb and Fender Blues Jr.). I love the SS amps for the convenience, versatility and fun factor. Yesterday morning I was practicing at 7:00 am while the wife and neighbors were still asleep - put the Micro Cube on the R-Fier setting and had a nice, fat, fuzzy rock tone at a volume I could almost whisper over. However, if I'm in a situation where I have the freedom to crank it up and get loud, I do love getting those little glass bottles cooking in a sweet tube amp. I don't know that I can describe the difference (and I'm not inclined to "cork-sniffer" terminology anyways), but I do definitely notice it.

As you said, the vast majority of non-musicians couldn't care less what amp you're playing - they wouldn't know the difference between a $99 solid-state Crate and a $9,000 Two-Rock Kimock! As long as they know/like the song and it sounds somewhat close to what they're used to hearing on their iPod or cell phone mp3 player, that's good enough. The only one who really notices the difference is you - and if that amp is "the tone you hear in your head" (which is probably different for every one of us), it's all good....whether it's tube, solid-state, modeler, whatever!

[Noodler]

I started guitar listening to ACDC, Metallica, Guns and Roses, Divinyls, etc. And when I went to live shows, Mashall stacks were it for the bigger bands, and half-stacks were it for covers bands. It was Marshall all the way baby! Marshall, Marshall, Marshall. And without cork-sniffing, I reckon I can put it in one word: Power! Those things give you the same sense of power, heard live, as a nearby thunderclap or fireworks, or a Harley thundering by. I reckon that's the attraction. Yeah, it's the same thing we like about Harleys.

IIRC

What's this mean?

But a Marshall isn't practical for 7am practice, and nor is it the best choice for all types of music, IMO.

In all honesty, I reckon a solid-state amp can sound better than some valve amps for clean tones, especially when you start running effects. Same for metal. I have gotten some sounds out of my GDEC running a Boss HM-2 through it that are as good as any metal recording I've heard. All solid state. Killer!...and that's through 8"!

Same for jazz. For a jazzer, SS would have to be a serious option for the clarity available. That and the lack of dynamics might mean that those extra tricky chords might sound better! Hence the JC 120.

What I'm trying to say is that IMO solid state needs to get away from being a "valve wannabe." It can actually, honestly be better. I think to some extent it's repeated like a thoughtless mantra that valve is better. If you want rock/ blues OD, then it is. Buy an Orange or a Marshall, for sure. But if you're playing really heavy metal, or extra clean, you are wasting your money. Just my 2c, but you get out of it cheaper and maintenance-free with a couple of good pedals.

[Nutty]

IIRC means "if I remember/recall correctly".

Nutty

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by Noodler

...What I'm trying to say is that IMO solid state needs to get away from being a "valve wannabe." It can actually, honestly be better. I think to some extent it's repeated like a thoughtless mantra that valve is better. If you want rock/ blues OD, then it is. Buy an Orange or a Marshall, for sure. But if you're playing really heavy metal, or extra clean, you are wasting your money. Just my 2c, but you get out of it cheaper and maintenance-free with a couple of good pedals.

Re: the "thoughtless mantra" - there definitely are plenty of tube "purists" who would probably give up guitar before playing through any SS amp - but I'm not one of them. I have my feet firmly in both camps, and believe there are uses for both. As you said, amps like the JC120 are favorites for ultra-clean guitarists (jazzers, etc.) who don't want any kind of break-up/OD/distortion/hair/dirt whatsoever in their sound....but Angus Young (AC/DC) probably wouldn't sound quite the same through one as he does through a Marshall stack. IMO, you're probably right about metal also - when you're playing the ultra-heavy stuff with that much distortion and layers of effects (delay, flanger, etc.), "tone" is largely a lost concept, so it really doesn't matter what amp you're playing through.

I wouldn't call either type of amp "better", because that all depends on what each individual's idea of "better" is. It's like saying a Ferrari is "better" than a 4x4 pickup truck - better for what? Are we talking about a paved asphalt racetrack, or a rugged off-road race??? Your Ferrari could beat my pickup truck in a race down the highway, but I'll bet you can't haul a couple yards of gravel in it or bring home a load of 8-foot 2x4's from Home Depot!

As far as the "maintenance" issue goes, I've seen arguments for both sides on that. While tube amps *do* require occasional maintenance (tube replacement, biasing on certain models, etc.), they're much easier to work on/repair than SS amps with their PCB's and tiny surface-mounted components. If something goes wrong with a solid-state amp (which does happen), it's much harder to diagnose and repair. The cost of getting it fixed could exceed what you originally paid for the amp, so they're essentially "throw-away" amps - when it breaks, toss it out and buy a new one (of course, the same thing can be said of PCB-built tube amps).

[scott58]

All good points and there are a few SS amps out there that give up some good tone in their own right. I've found that Hybrid is more my cup of tee. Not the traditional tube in the preamp Hybrid, but my SS modeler through my Valve Jr. The tube seems to remove almost any hint of digital sound in most cases and adds a layer of tone i can't get running through an SS amp (or my SS PA for that matter). Surprisingly the gain on the amp can be balanced with the tubescreamer model for even more versatility. All subjective of course, but to my ear for home practice a POD (or similar) through a 5 watt tube amp is all i'll ever need for practice unless the power goes out. Then I'll put batteries in my DA20 and continue on.

[Noodler]

That's a good point. I'll have to see how my Pocket Pod sounds through a valve amp.

I haven't been a fan of the Valve Jnr, but with some multi-fx you could adjust the EQ, change the colouring a bit. Mate, if it works, props (I think that's the hip word now for "good on you" ) to you for coming up with a cheap way to get great tones.

when you're playing the ultra-heavy stuff with that much distortion and layers of effects (delay, flanger, etc.), "tone" is largely a lost concept, so it really doesn't matter what amp you're playing through.

I saw an ad for a new Kirk Hammett (Metallica) all-tube amp today. Maybe for concerts of their size they can use them, but man, it just seems like a marketing thing that we all buy into to some extent. As a huge fan of Metallica, the last thing I think of is their valve tone. It's all about their rhythm and aggression.

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by Noodler

...I saw an ad for a new Kirk Hammett (Metallica) all-tube amp today. Maybe for concerts of their size they can use them, but man, it just seems like a marketing thing that we all buy into to some extent....

I just had to Google it to have a look. A 100W tube head and 4x12 cab, for a mere $9,999.00. Yikes!!! They're awful proud of that thing - that's well beyond the pricing of 99% of the high-end "boutique" tube amps!

I was originally going to say that you're right about marketing, and that a lot of Metallica fans would be buying these amps and then expressing disappointment because they didn't sound like Kirk Hammett playing them at home in their bedroom - but I somehow doubt that there are many teenage Kirk Hammett fans who will be able to spring $10K for that amp! Randall may have missed their mark with this one.

Originally Posted by Noodler

...As a huge fan of Metallica, the last thing I think of is their valve tone. It's all about their rhythm and aggression.

Funny you should say that - "tone" has never been the first thing to come to my mind when I listened to Metallica either!

[Noodler]

I remember practicing Seek and Destroy at a friends house with our band. As a teen I had the distrotion on about 8. The drummer's Dad, an ex-session pro came up and turned my guitar down to clean. Told us to play it again and told us it sounded better. I thought it sounded weak. But what he said was, "You listen to that record. They're not playing distorted. They've got a big sound, but it's clean. That sounds much better." At the time I thought he was wrong, crazy and old! But he was basically right. He'd done gigs with people like Johnny O'Keefe and had more experience than me.

Listening to Metallica now, you can hear the notes. It's not hissy 15W practice amp distortion. It's full, powerful and crunchy, but it's clear (not muddy or hissy).

$10K? Is that $US? Crickey!!!!!! The ad didn't have the price. If you have to ask, you can't afford it applies here.