[Maddog54]

Over the last 4-5 months I've seemed to develop a case of G.A.S. with the complication of being deficient in C.A.S.H. LOL

Anyway, I'm now looking into a 12 string. I never thought I would get into that(figuring I have enough trouble right now with 6 strings). However, I played a couple 12's over at GC just for kicks. First I played a Mitchell solid-top which I thought sounded pretty cool for the low price. I liked the sound(which I'm not progressed enough to even describe). Then I picked up a low end Martin (D12X1 I believe) that ranged around $600. After that I wouldn't buy the Mitchell for anything more than a boat oar, because the Martin definitely outclassed it by a couple thousand miles in every aspect. Today I played a Seagull and tried by memory to compare it to the Martin, which I'm leaning toward, except there is no fretboard inlays(which I rely on heavily). The Seagull sounded good to me. My only hang up is I've heard a cedar top isnt as "sturdy" as spruce? Nice sounding guitar either way.

So I've pretty much narrowed it down to 3 guitars, two of which I have played and liked, and the Yamaha FG720S (12 string version) that I havent played yet, but plan on having a look at tomorrow if I can find it somewhere.


Martin D12X1 12-String Solid Top Acoustic Guitar and more 12 String Acoustic Guitars at GuitarCenter.com.

Yamaha FG720S 12-String Acoustic Guitar and more 12 String Acoustic Guitars at GuitarCenter.com.

Seagull Coastline Series S12 Dreadnought 12-String Acoustic Guitar and more 12 String Acoustic Guitars at GuitarCenter.com.


Anyone have any experience with these guitars that can maybe help make up my mind?

Also, how much harder is it to tune/play a 12? I mean I've messed with them and kinda figure you play same as a 6, but you're holding 2 strings at once(or am I way out of it here?).

[billywhitebread]

you'll like the yamaha. i have played all 3. i own a gibson/epiphone jumbo 12 string and she is my pride and joy.

i came close to buying the martin you mentioned a while back, i loved it.

not fond of the seagull at all....just not, don't know why

the yamaha actually has a nice sound and decent quality and affordable

the only reason i passed on the martin was that it had no pick up in it and at times i like to plug in...although you could always get a soundhole pick up....

playing a 12 is much easier for me personally. its not something you really wanna pick or play lead on all the time but it is great for rhythm, fills, color, texture to the music. i lead worhsip with mine so i strum an awful lot. for me playing it is a bit more forgiving because i have thick fingers and its a wide neck...

[Maddog54]

Originally Posted by billywhitebread

playing a 12 is much easier for me personally. its not something you really wanna pick or play lead on all the time but it is great for rhythm, fills, color, texture to the music. i lead worhsip with mine so i strum an awful lot. for me playing it is a bit more forgiving because i have thick fingers and its a wide neck...

I think you hit it on the head right there....the wider fretboard seems a lot easier for me to play on. I'll definitely give the Yamaha a go before I get anything.

[Nutty]

Originally Posted by Maddog54

Also, how much harder is it to tune/play a 12? I mean I've messed with them and kinda figure you play same as a 6, but you're holding 2 strings at once(or am I way out of it here?).

I don't have any experience with these models. I have a Simon and Patrick that I'm quite happy with.

Tuning is not a problem. A "regular" tuner works fine since the bass strings (EADG) are just one octave higher and the treble strings (BE) and tuned the same.

They are also very easy to play. I find if you have your fingers in the general area of the chord it sounds fine, without applying a lot of pressure on your fingers. I usually play my 12 string at church, but if I happen to bring my 6 string, I notice a huge difference and your fingering has to be perfect and find I have to work much harder at it!

Hope this helps.

Nutty

[starsailor]

Hi Maddog, I've got a Yamaha FG312 and it sounds pretty good, relatively straight forward to tune these as Nutty has mentioned already, from the reviews I've read the Seagull is a nice guitar but if there's anything that bothers you about a guitar even if it's only the inlays it is worth thinking twice about a purchase as there's no point having a guitar you don't like, the Martin would be nice if you've got the money but definitely worth checking out the Yamaha, looks like a nice guitar for a reasonable price it probably beats the FG312 on tone and the 312 as I've said does sound good in my opinion

[Maddog54]

Thanks guys...I'm leaving in about 30 minutes to go invade the evil empire and kick out all the little kids playing with $20,000 Gibsons (ie going to GC). Not that I'm ever buying a guitar from them...just a nice place to compare models

[Stratrat]

Let us know what you come up with. Martins are great guitars, but I'd definitely agree with the others about at least giving the Yamaha a look. Play everything you can before you make your decision and lay down your cash!

[JF-30]

A friend of mine just bought the Yamaha and it sure sounds and plays nice!
Bob

[Maddog54]

Well they didn't have the Martin, so I didnt get to play it a second time. I played the Yamaha first, and it sounded terrible to me....maybe just that particular guitar? Then I played the Seagull, and I liked it, but my wife said it didnt sound as good as the Martin. So I'm basically back to square one. GC has that Martin on order coming in Friday, so perhaps I'll head back over there this weekend again.

While I was there I played some Gretsch that just caught my eye through a Line6 amp(not sure which one). Dang did that sound good. Lots of effects on the amp also....almost too many switches/knobs for me at this stage, but it sounded great. While I was sitting there, some guy walked past and said he bought like 4 of those amps to replace his Marshalls! Is Line6 really that good? They seemed to me to be the more reasonably priced amps.

[Stratrat]

Sounds like the Martin is the winner for you!

Originally Posted by Maddog54

...While I was there I played some Gretsch that just caught my eye...

Was it the G5120, maybe? Sweet guitar!

Originally Posted by Maddog54

...some guy walked past and said he bought like 4 of those amps to replace his Marshalls! Is Line6 really that good?...

Not in my opinion. The only way I could see that is if he's replacing 4 solid-state Marshall practice amps....or he's completely tone-deaf!

[Lcjones]

If I may....

There are plenty of acoustic 12 string models on the market. Most mid priced to low range priced acoustic twelves usually sound too tinny. They do not carry a bottom end to them. I do not recommend purchasing an acoustic 12 without having had in your hands and actually playing it and hearing it. You "need" to feel it in your hands! You need to hear it in your ears. If it is uncomfortable in either department, don't buy it.

Acoustic 12's demand a robust body to gather not only the high octave tones but they must also be able to deliver the low end bass tones to even out the sound. Of course, the high end models of Taylor, Martin and Gibson can do the job but you will pay the price. A big price!

Of all the acoustic twelves I have played over the years, and I can promise you I've played many, there are few that can compare to a Guild 12 string. If you are serious about a twelve string AND a budget, you cannot go wrong with a Guild.


Having said above, let me be a bit more concise. The post-Fender and later Guild (GAD) models of are not as good nor carry the tone as the "pre-Fender" days of Guild guitars. That's not to say they are bad guitars, rather that Fender just has a different grasp on quality of tone these days for Guild guitars.

Many acoustic 12's have very wide necks at the nut to accommodate the extra stress placed on the neck with 12 strings pulling on it. Upper end 12's will have strong and narrower necks at the nut with action that is nice and low.

You want to avoid wide necks with high action as they are terrible to tune up and seriously hard to play. Many low end 12's will play well on the lower 5 or 6 frets but will be tough on the upper frets. So be sure to check out every 12 you play on the uppers!

If I were to recommend a Guild 12 for a first time 12 buyer, I would recommend the Guild F212 model. They don't make them any more but can be found on ebay. The F212 is a "jumbo" cut but smaller than a true jumbo body. They have excellent tones for their size and require little maintenance.

My second choice would would be a dreadnaught or D series Guild. The early D series are very popular and are becoming harder to find as those who have them are reluctant to part with them. These were built between the mid 70's through early 80's. The D's have excellent tones as the Guild D212 series has the "arched" back. The arched back was built like a violin. A rounded, arched back with no stress bars on the back. This created a great overall tone in the dreadnaught body style. Very attractive and functional. Both the F and D series have excellent string spacing and neck performance.

Strings play a huge roll on 12's depending on how you want to tune a 12. "Rumor" has it, a 12 string guitar should never be tuned to standard pitch because of the "extra" string tension. If you use light gauge strings, read that as 9 or 10's, they are perfectly fine at concert pitch. If you wish to use 11+, tune your 12 down 1/2 step and capo up 1 fret. Light gauge strings do not hamper the neck but heavy gauge strings will tend to pull out a neck or pull up a bridge.

Changing/replacing strings is a job on any 12 string guitar. Patience is definitely a virtue here. Change 1 pair of octaves at a time. The reason being, removing "all" 12 strings at one time relieves and then restores full tension on the neck in a short time span. This is unnecessary stress on the neck. It's a "boing" in the life span of a guitar. No need to boing your guitar! Most acoustic 12's will take about 15 minutes to replace and tune all strings. By contrast, my Rickenbacker 360/12 electric takes about 2 hours to change out. But that is a design choice, and a good one, by Rickenbacker.

Well, I hope I haven't bored you or changed your mind about acoustic 12's. They create beautiful tones on the order of hammered dulcimers.

As a side note and if you wish, I can post sound clips of both Guild F and D series 12 strings. Just let me know.

**
LC

[Maddog54]

Well now I'm wondering if I really want a 12....I like the sound, but as of yet I'm only playing up to the 4th or 5th fret, and dont really know anything 'above' that. Those that I've talked to about the Seagull say its a great guitar at a fair price. I was concerned with the top being cedar, but more because of reliability. I can somewhat tell the difference between cedar and spruce as far as tone, but to me its exactly that..different(as opposed to one being superior to the other).

So I'm down to the Seagull or the Martin right now. I'm beginning to thing this is going to be a longer process than I thought. My budget is one of the bigger issues, so I'm not going to be looking for a high end Taylor or Martin. And the tuning issues(standard pitch = stress) is something I didnt know. I did read something that Seagull is designed to be able to withstand that stress.

Maybe I should wait a few more years LOL I just really like the sound of the 12 and the wide neck.

[billywhitebread]

dude don't let that scare ya..seriously...its really not all that complicated....

also you might want to check out the Takamine 12...budget wise and tone wise i like it, however, the martin would be my first choice.
plenty of bottom and good treble...great guitar

always go with your first choice and your gut instinct...you won't be sorry that way...

[Rockerbob]

I looked into my 12 string and it was dark in there.

[Maddog54]

Originally Posted by Rockerbob

I looked into my 12 string and it was dark in there.

Well, it sounds like your 12 string being dark is an easily solved issue.

For this project you will need an icepick, a hammer, and a Sharpie(color is optional).

Start by making several(12-15) 1/4 inch dots on the back of your guitar. Next center the icepick in the dots. Now hit the icepick with the hammer...VIOLA! Now you should have light coming through the soundhole!


Seriously though, I'm now looking at a Seagull Maritime Spruce 12 Gloss. I like the spruce over the cedar top, and the Maritime has a slightly wider nut. Same price as the Martin(and if I were to order from Geartree it comes with a free Gator hardcase which looked pretty sturdy).