Chord Tones

r1p32 · #1 August 15th, 2007

I've read many posts mentioning following chord tones or the chord progression in improvisation, and I'm pretty confused....

I've been practicing the Pentatonic Scale for a while now. And I have to say that I really feel like I'm getting closer and closer to being able to improvise. But what I work on is trying to make it sound musical and express myself. I thought playing the scale of the key would be the way to go about improvising or lead guitar; but what does "playing around the chords" mean? Sorry I'm being unclear...

Um..Lets say a chord progression in the key of C like
C, Am, F, G, C

To try some melody over the chords should I just play with the Pentatonic Scale in mind and move the root note to C and play that over the whole progression (which is what i've been doing). Do I move the scale to the root note of the chord being played? (like playing the C pentatonic scale over a C chord, the A pentatonic over the Am. etc). Or do I find the individual notes in each chord and doodle around with those?

Is there anything particularly limiting with playing scales? Even if I experiment with the scale with 'wrong notes'?

As of now I really like playing blues and trying some lead over chord progressions i make up, but I'm asking because I'd really like to start playing Jazz and I keep hearing how 'following chords' are the way to go with improvisation in that genre.

Thanks a Lot!

justinthyme · #2 August 15th, 2007

Set yourself free from scales and get PlaneTalk - take a look here:

http://www.guitarforbeginners.com/fo...-testimonials/

bmurnahan · #3 August 15th, 2007

Quote:

I thought playing the scale of the key would be the way to go about improvising or lead guitar

This can only take you so far. Even if all of the chords come from the same key certain notes just do not work well against certain chords. The note C against a G chords for example just doesn't work well at all.

As long as you are moving in a stepwise fashion through the scale at a decent tempo the notes do not have a chance to create these clashes. It's only when you stop on a note that you have to be careful.

Quote:

To try some melody over the chords should I just play with the Pentatonic Scale in mind and move the root note to C and play that over the whole progression (which is what i've been doing). Do I move the scale to the root note of the chord being played?

Each of these approaches can work. With the first one you have to be careful (see above).

With the second approach, assuming you just use pentatonic scales, it's not much different than just playing through the chords since the pentatonic scales are made up of the 1, 3 and 5 of the chord plus two great color tones in the 6th and the 9th.

Quote:

Or do I find the individual notes in each chord and doodle around with those?

Playing this way you will always be safe.

Quote:

Is there anything particularly limiting with playing scales?

Only having one way to approach anything is limiting.

Quote:

I'd really like to start playing Jazz and I keep hearing how 'following chords' are the way to go with improvisation in that genre.

All great jazz players follow the chords. A good working knowledge of chord tones is the most important thing that you can have. Different scales are valuable because they provide different color tones to fill in around the chord tones.

They really work hand in hand but you really have to be aware of each chord that you are playing on as it goes by. Learning to improvise takes time and there is always more to learn. Be patient and have fun.

Bob

Kirk Lorange · #4 August 15th, 2007

Hi, r1p32.

I'm the chord tone guy.

Melody loves Chord Tones ... that's just a simple fact of music. If you analyze any great (memorable) melody, you'll find it underpinned by chord tones. That's why it sounds so good. Other notes do come into play, but as lower ranked "go-between" notes that could easily not be there and not affect the overall melody.

If you like the melodic approach, then I recommend that you make sure you can always see the chord that is in play on the whole fretboard. Its tones will be your strongest notes. So if the chord is A9, you'll be seeing the 1-2-3-5-b7; if it's a minor, 1-b3-5. The bigger the chord, the more tones. This is especially relevant when playing music other than the blues/rock genre where you can noodle away on a pentatonic pattern and start to make music. But, once you start playing tunes with more complex chord progressions, you need to do something else: follow the chords. Use each chord's tones as the main notes of the melody during that chord. Otherwise, you'll be hitting bum notes all night.

This kind of approach has nothing to do with scales. You need never know what scale/mode you're dipping into, the chord has already crytallized it.

It's easier than it sounds, you just need to look at it differently, how to see the whole fretboard as the chord. That way, every time the chord changes, you see your fretboard as that chord.

That's the melodic approach, telling a story with your improv/solo, always on track with the chord progression, always knowing what you're playing; in control.

My book PlaneTalk teaches a good way of doing all that.

Kirk Lorange · #5 August 15th, 2007

Good to hear yo got the DVD, Jay Jay.

Yes, practice is the only way to get anywhere when it comes to playing an instrument. There are no quick ways to get there.

hb · #6 August 15th, 2007

"So if the chord is A9, you'll be seeing the 1-2-3-5-b7"

Will someone help me with the math here, please. I have read PT about 3 times and I thought I had it pretty well digested, but I guess not. I was under the impression that a "9" meant the same thing as a "2" in terms of it's position on the scale. But by what Kirk said, I read it as a b7 being a 9. What am I missing?
Sorry so stupid!
hb

justinthyme · #7 August 15th, 2007

@ hb - a 9 is a two - just one octave higher. Whatever the extension is (higher than 7) subtract 7 from it to get back to the note. So a 13 would contain a 6, for instance. You are right with the A9.

hb · #8 August 15th, 2007

So are you saying that this was just a typo by Kirk?....if so, I say, Wheeeew!!! Maybe I do savy some of this after all!
hb

Stratrat · #9 August 15th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by hb

So are you saying that this was just a typo by Kirk?....

He included the '2' in there. "1-2-3-5-b7"

allthumbs · #10 August 15th, 2007

Not a typo. Chord extensions above a 7th chord always have a b7. Kirk just laid out the numbers in a linear fashion. So a 9th,11th and a 13th chord all have a b7 in them.
Chords have different numbers in different orders depending on the chord inversion.

Noodler · #11 August 16th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by allthumbs

Not a typo. Chord extensions above a 7th chord always have a b7. Kirk just laid out the numbers in a linear fashion. So a 9th,11th and a 13th chord all have a b7 in them.
Chords have different numbers in different orders depending on the chord inversion.

A great rule of thumb. Thanks. SO there's no such thing as an extension beyond a major 7th then. Any more rules of thumb like that one re:chord spelling?

I've got a Fender GDec, which has a backing band built in. That has been the best thing to learn what notes sound good "around chords." Put on a track that is in A, for instance (preferably one that stays there!), and play an A barre chord. Keep the shape in your mind, or even better keep holding the shape and reach with your pinky and find what notes sound good with the chord. Some notes will "work" and others will "suck".

Do the same for A shaped barre chords, but forget trying to hold the root (unless you have good pinky reach). Most nice notes will be two frets up from your third finger. You can use a different voicing for this. Instead of holding C on the 3rd fret of the 5th string to play C as an A shaped barre, play this:

---------x--------
---------5------
---------5------
---------5------
---------7------
---------x-------

It is still a C chord (technically C/E, but E is part of C anyway), but it frees your fingers up to explore what notes sound good around the A shaped barre chord.

Hope that helps. There's been lots of great advice in this thread already. Especially kirk. What he is saying is spot-on true.

Noodler · #12 August 16th, 2007

A question for Kirk,

If someone plays say Amaj7, B11, E9, Amaj7, I find that I can play just about any notes out of the A major scale and it will suit. It's like because the harmony is so complex, the melody doesn't have to do much, you know? Do all of those chords contain the notes of the A major scale? Or is it just because the progression keeps coming back to a major 7?

How many inversions are you recommending to learn for each chord to improvise in terms of jazz? Would 3 cover it (6,5 and 4 root)?

allthumbs · #13 August 16th, 2007

When you play extensions noodles, remember the extension before the current one always contains the last extension. You don't have to play it but be aware that it is a note the fits into that chord your playing. The 11th contains a 9 and the 13th contains an11th.

Noodler · #14 August 16th, 2007

My memory is like a sieve! So if below is right, thanks heaps, I'll never forget now!

So, does that mean you get:

Dom 7: 1, 3, 5, b7
9th: 1,3,5,b7, 9
11th 1,3,5,b7, 9, 11 (or 2)
13th 1,3,5, b7, 9, 11, 13?

How many of those are correct? Do you mean that since a 9th has a major 3rd that they all do, we're just adding another note on top each time?

The 9th you'd normally play, is that a major chord?

It also just occurred to me that as you start playing more complex chords, since "melody loves chord tones", you could almost start playing anything in the lower half of the scale!? ie for a 13th, you've got 1,2,3,4,5, b7 as chord tones!

OK, next rule of thumb: what about minor 9ths, etc. Is it a minor b3 or b9? Or both? Is there a general rule there?

Fretsource · #15 August 16th, 2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noodler

My memory is like a sieve! So if below is right, thanks heaps, I'll never forget now!

So, does that mean you get:

Dom 7: 1, 3, 5, b7
9th: 1,3,5,b7, 9
11th 1,3,5,b7, 9, 11 (or 2)
13th 1,3,5, b7, 9, 11, 13?

How many of those are correct? Do you mean that since a 9th has a major 3rd that they all do, we're just adding another note on top each time?

The 9th you'd normally play, is that a major chord?

It also just occurred to me that as you start playing more complex chords, since "melody loves chord tones", you could almost start playing anything in the lower half of the scale!? ie for a 13th, you've got 1,2,3,4,5, b7 as chord tones!

OK, next rule of thumb: what about minor 9ths, etc. Is it a minor b3 or b9? Or both? Is there a general rule there?

The chords look fine except for the (or 2) in the 11th chord as 11 = 4 not 2.

Minor 9ths are 1 b3 5 b7 9