[chorizo]

Just throwing this out there...

Would you say the "ultimate goal" (if such a thing exists) in improvisation would be to be able just play the notes you think of (or feel). Do you think this would be possible after enough time and practice so that you wouldn't even need to know about the underlying music, (i.e you would just hit the right notes)???

[si16]

I'd say the ultimate goal is to be able to reproduce what you're hearing in your head on your chosen instrument. It's definitely possible to achieve, with lots of hard work of course. One listen to George Benson scat-singing along to his guitar playing is proof enough of that. Complete understanding of intervals is probably a good way to start.

[allthumbs]

With enough practice, yes. It is not that you ignore the underlying music but, that your subconscious processes what you need to know to play within the context of a tune without having to think about it.

[AX7221]

Originally Posted by chorizo

Would you say the "ultimate goal" (if such a thing exists) in improvisation would be to be able just play the notes you think of (or feel). Do you think this would be possible after enough time and practice so that you wouldn't even need to know about the underlying music, (i.e you would just hit the right notes)???

I think both are true, the major different being time. I think it would take a long time to be able to play by ear, but with the aid of music theory it can be done faster.

However I still think music theory is needed for communication, to learn from other musicians. Like if I can play by ear and I listen to a complex jazz song I probably wouldn't be able to just recreate it, but if I know what the chord progression is, and I understand what sounds that progression entails then I can use that bit of knowledge to recreate it, and to expand on it and expand what I play.

[chorizo]

hmm interesting. Have checked some clips of George Benson. He certainly has that skill. Amazing!

I can also see now that to recreate and expand on a complex jazz sound for example you would need to use theory to help you.

Thanks for your thoughts!

I often wonder to what extent guitarists (and other musicians) actually do improvise during their live shows and how much is rehersed. It will be a mixture of the two but I'd definitely prefer to watch a show where i feel more improvisation is happening.

Especially were you can see/feel the interaction between musicians in a smaller band and you know you're seeing a one-off show.

[felixdcat]

The ultimate goal is to know how it's gonna sound and then play it.

[st_jo]

i agree that if you can imagine it, you can recreate it.
if you build it, they will come.
if a mime falls in the forest, does it make a balony sandwhich?

[felixdcat]

Makes me wonder.

[Kirk Lorange]

Once you understand how music works, and with lots and lots of concentrated playing and listening, you can know what's going on musically simply by listening. After my 47 years of playing and listening, when I listen to music, part of my brain is going "I ... vi ... II7 ... I ..." etc., as the progression progresses. If you can do that, the rest is limited only by the imagination and inventiveness you can muster up and physical ability. But, yes, absolutely, as impossible as it may seem when starting out, playing what you hear in your head gets easier and easier to do. All notes become numbers; if you can hear the number, and see it on the fretboard, you can play it.

[eddiez152]

Kirk,
It is very interesting indeed. Although, I never understood the replationship til now, I mean in terms of structure or math. I do know that even when listening to tunes I have never heard before I could anticipate the changes and direction of the tune.
This allowed me to playing something by ear along with the tune quickly, or at least on the keyboards. I wish it could happen as quick on the guitar. But the learning starts here, from the people in the know. I'll get there in time ! Plane Talk was another great invention and tool to learning.
Thanks Kirk !

[felixdcat]

Originally Posted by eddiez152

Kirk,
It is very interesting indeed. Although, I never understood the replationship til now, I mean in terms of structure or math. I do know that even when listening to tunes I have never heard before I could anticipate the changes and direction of the tune.
This allowed me to playing something by ear along with the tune quickly, or at least on the keyboards. I wish it could happen as quick on the guitar. But the learning starts here, from the people in the know. I'll get there in time ! Plane Talk was another great invention and tool to learning.
Thanks Kirk !

It's just impossible to say how much Kirk has done for people which want to learn guitar.

[scotty_b]

For me, the ultimate goal is to go beyond the notes and express something. Ideally I would like to express the fullness of life - anything and everything - in my playing and improvising.
Eric Clapton once said he hoped to one day play a guitar solo so beautiful that people would cry - I have that as one of my goals too.

[Kirk Lorange]

Don't forget that Sinatra-esque track waiting for you in the other thread, scotty_b. It's only 3 minutes long.

[papadog65]

Many good points in here from all of you. I've tried many times to play by ear; I know the tones I'd "like" to make, but most of the time I hit wrong ones. I'm working on some scale patterns now and hope that I'll be able to know where the chord tones are so I can hit 'em right.

[scotty_b]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

Don't forget that Sinatra-esque track waiting for you in the other thread, scotty_b. It's only 3 minutes long.

Hey Kirk
Haven't forgotten, but was in a car crash last week and having some back problems - not really able to play the guitar freely at the moment. Hopefully a few more quiet days and I will be ready to go!