[chorizo]

Bit of a strange question but i reckon i can sometimes get the key of a song, or narrow it down often to two possible keys from a drum intro (professionally recorded songs with enough of an intro. that is). My wife thinks i'm talking rubbish and that I must be hearing the bass too. Can i get any backup here?

[chorizo]

...It's gone strangely quiet...

[Dewy]

I'm going to have to agree with your wife on this one...

Drums are percussive... not musical. There is no musical note to drums... when they are "tuned" its just a reference to tension of the head and balancing out the overall drum set.

If there was some musical "Key" to drums... they would have to change drum sets when we changed songs.

[Mike8307]

Is it possible that you know the upcoming song just from drum intro. Upon hearing the intro your mind subconsciously hears the key of the song you already know.

Otherwise I'd have to agree with your wife and Dewy on this.

Michael

[Fretsource]

On the face of it, I'd have to agree with your wife and Dewy and Mike. I can't think of any reason why hearing the drums should trigger the correct pitch in your mind (unless maybe you have some degree of perfect pitch and the drums trigger your memory of the song, as Mike suggested)

But whatever theories we come up with to explain why it can't be done, if you can actually do it then all our theories are useless.

Test yourself some more and let us know.

By the way, as you're from London, DON'T use the drum intro to Eastenders theme tune as a test. I believe those are electronically processed with a bit of bass tone added, which would let you pitch the tune correctly,(as your wife suspected).

[chorizo]

LoL Eastenders - I wish i could say i don't know that tune but unfortunately it is deeply etched into my brain, and I hate to say that I often find myself joining in on the guitar too .

Thanks for your honest opinions (you guys don't take any prisoners do you! ).

So I would score that:
WIFE 3 - ME 0.25 (thanks Fret! I like the way you think )

But despite Dewys seemingly watertight argument about having to change drumsets to play songs in different keys which left me feeling somewhat deflated, i intend to test my theory further. I know that some of the tracks that i was playing over were electronic and other were not so in order do a fair test.

Does anyone know of any good long drum intros or drum sections which are

a) not from an electronic source
b) studio recordings as opposed to live versions
c) not Led Zepplin - too familiar (to test Michael's and Fret's theory of subconcious key familiarity )
d) not just tapping a high hat! - a range of different sounds would be better

The only possible one I can think of right now (its getting late) is Just Go Ahead Now by the Spin Doctors - . I will play just the drum part over and over on A-B repeat and try to see what i can pick out (if anything at all) and report back with my findings. Just humour(humor) me OK!

[Fretsource]

Ok - but you must be sure not to hear the music after the drum intro on the same day that you do the test. It has to be next day so that you wake up with no memory of the actual pitch still in your mind.

I mean, play the whole song as often as you like today but tomorrow, isolate the drums and listen to only them - then try to guess the correct pitch of the music that follows. You've still got a 1 in 12 chance, of getting it right by guessing alone so you'll need at least 2 or 3 more songs to impress the wife.

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by chorizo

Bit of a strange question but i reckon i can sometimes get the key of a song, or narrow it down often to two possible keys from a drum intro (professionally recorded songs with enough of an intro. that is). My wife thinks i'm talking rubbish and that I must be hearing the bass too. Can i get any backup here?

Well, it's certainly a tough thing to do, but I think it can be done.

A drummer that I work with in the studio always (well, probably 75% of the time and depending on the song) tunes his snare to either the root note or the 5th of the key of the song. If it's not the root or the 5th, it's a deliberate pitch within the key. First time I ever saw that one...but I think it can make a difference.

The problem is that there's no guarantee that the drummer of the song you're listening to went to that kind of extreme in the studio. But if you're familiar with a song, it's very possible. The other thing is that it would be a fairly hard thing to hear I would think. It's still going to be a suggestive thing, 'cause like Dewy says, the drums are a percussive thing...

Steve

[Dewy]

A test tune could be Van Halen's Pretty Woman, the intro is often called "Intruder". It starts out with just Kick, hi-hat and snare, followed by a synth line. .opening note is an Eb progressing to an A.

Van Halen also plays with an Eb tuning, so the tune we hear recorded will be lower pitched than our efforts to reproduce it at standard tuning. Time and time again we bounced back and forth from recording to band mates trying the tune at standard, with no noticeable effect on the drums of the tune... yet a noticeable disorientation for the strings. Vocals seem to adjust very quickly. (to my ear)

[chorizo]

Thanks Dewy. I will have a listen to that and try it out over the weekend.

The reason i got onto the subject in the first place was from hearing a band practicing and thinking the drums sound particularly awful. Not only did they sound like they were not "tuned" to work together (almost as if the "intervals" in changing between the types of drum were all wrong), they also sounded out of tune with music the rest of the band was playing and I was wondering why because they are percussive after all, and wondered why other drum sounded so right or "in tune".

For me the effect was more noticable with the toms and Bass although to snare can definitely sound "off" too. I then just assumed that drums were tuned somehow (as you can tell i know nothing about drum kit).

I will try to find an example of where toms seem to me to be "in tune" with the song. Perhaps you cannot necessarily find the key from their sound alone but maybe some idea of the notes contained in the key whether it be the root, fifth or whatever as Steve suggested (if i'm understanding correctly).

[Dewy]

Here's some interesting reading...
http://www.drummingweb.com/tuning.htm

And the most telling statement I see in the article is

" The pitch of the head will depend on the pitch of the shell, the pitch of the opposing head, the relative pitches of the other drums in your kit, and your taste (the acoustics of the room you are playing in usually doesn't affect pitch - it affects tone)."

All over the thread they talk about different techniques and intervals... but no where do they discussing using a reference pitch.

And same as you, I have noticed bands with drums "out of tune" but never in reference to the band... just to itself.

[Tekker]

Very intersting theory.

As Fretsource mentioned, there's no way to tell what kind of extent they went to when tuning the drums in the studio. You can tune drums to the key of the song, but unless you hear the drums in context you'll have no way of knowing whether they did that or not just based off the drum intro.

I think most of the time the drums are tuned relative to each other and not necessarily to a specific key though. There are many methods to finding the "sweet spot" in terms of tuning the drum to sound its best which depends on the size and type of shell, drum heads, etc. So the chances of the drums sweat spot matching a specific key are probably not to likely and you wouldn't want to tune the drums to pitches where they don't sound their best. DW drums actually come with notes printed on the inside of the shell that specify the resonant frequency of the shell.

So while it may be possible, the odds of picking the key for any random song just based off the drums are probably not too good.

-tkr

[DemoEtc]

I don't know about getting a starting note or key from a drum intro, but I hear pitches in certain drum parts; that's why you can sometimes sing along with a drum roll or part. I think it's the fundamental I'm hearing.

But as far as getting the key - maybe just on that one song because that particular drummer had his kit tuned that certain way. Like with tympani, you can hear pitches. Another drum kit might throw you off though.

Found this article on wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drum_se...ning_intervals

Where, toward the bottom, it talks about drummers tuning in intervals; maybe not specific pitches you could check with a tuner, but relative intervals that suit their ear and make the drum heads neither too loose nor too tight. And the idea of intervals would assume some way of differentiating pitches, which would also hint that there are basic pitches/frequencies being brought into the equation.

So over all, I think it's very possible to get a starting note from a drum intro, all conditions being right.

[chorizo]

Thanks Demo. I think we're getting close to the answer that is; it all depends.

(my terminology might be all wrong but hopefully you get the jist)

The drums may be set up at certain preferred pitch intervals and sometimes it happens to be that these pitch frequencies relate to the notes/key more and other times less so, but in general it wouldn't be a reliable way to gain clues/information about the key or notes.

however

That also leads me to another question: How much will the pitches/frequencies chosen by the drummer's setup influence (either subconsciously or not) the other members of the band in choosing how to play? and in what keys I think it has a larger effect than i first thought - possibly leading to the relationship between all instruments being closer. There are to many songs where i think the relationship can't just be a lucky accident.

(I will still try my test with intros this weekend anyway. If I go quiet after that you know what that means).

[chorizo]

Update:
Tried a few intros to songs this with drum intos weekend with A-B repeat funtion on my player.

Songs never heard before:
Painkiller - Judas Priest - couldn't tell what key even when the intro finished
Intruder - Van Halen - Not enough to go by before other instruments joined in.
The The Rover - Led Zeppelin - on key first attempt. Repeated again next day.

Songs I'd heard before

Two Princes - Spin Doctors - could'nt get key but some notes sounded more right than others.

Couldn't find any others to try out but after a few attempts i think some songs have enough information in the drum parts to give you clues to the notes others don't. (I don't think my wife will be impressed ).

It was easier to spot the notes which didn't fit in with the drum sounds and rule them out. Why don't you try A-B repeat with first 4 secs of The The Rover - Led Zeppelin and see if it works for you?