[Hey]

Ok, Im back, and have some more questions about scales...

Lets say your playing this scale, c major pentectoinc scale according to my terrible scale book...:

-------------
-----------1-
-------2-0---
---2-0------
-3----------
------------

then you play this:

------------
-----------2---
-------3-1----
---3-1---------
-4------------
-----------------

I moved it up one threat... so is this a c minor now? Im confused. And if I move it up again, then what will it be?(im useing the same position) Is there some kind of "order" of keys i need to go by, like after c its always D?im not sure... Please help, thanks...

And yes, Im planning to buy more books soon, but in the mean time I got some scales I want to learn and study first.

[Fretsource]

No - it's not C minor pentatonic. It's C SHARP (C#) MAJOR pentatonic (also called D flat (Db) major pentatonic)
Yes - there IS an order of keys
A A# or Bb B C C# or Db D D#/Eb E F F#/Gb G G#/Ab

Majors are majors and minors are minors. You can move minors exactly the same way as the major - but a major scale won't suddenly become minor.

[Clancy]

Hi Hey, it might also help you know (when you're searching for info) it's not threat, it's fret (fretboard).

Clancy

[Hey]

Ok, thank you Fretsource... Im just really new to this music thero thing, always tryed to avoid it but now I'm curious. Now I think I finally got it, thanks

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Hey

Ok, thank you Fretsource... Im just really new to this music thero thing, always tryed to avoid it but now I'm curious. Now I think I finally got it, thanks

Hey!

There are two 'parts' to learning guitar: music theory and how that applies to the fretboard. So there's understanding the language of music and then there's physical shapes on the neck.

I see you've been playing for 5 years or more, so you probably know alot of chords. Learn the major scale and it's intervals and know that scales are found inside the chord formations and it will all start falling together for you.

Steve

[Hey]

And yes solidwalnut, Im not a beginner at guitar, but at music thero I am defently am. People say music thero is bad and blocks up your creativity... But what about the rev. gary davis, jimi hendrix, josph spence and blind blake... They all had SOME knoledge of music thero and there were some of the most creative and greatist guitarist of all time. Although none of them I dont think could read music(espshly the rev and blake( they all knew there keys and had some knoledge of scales or some form of it... Anyway, thats my take on it, but I could still be wrong.

But another question, what are the main scales I should learn... I know pentectonics are one of them... Any other important ones? And how about the minor key ones?

Thanks

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by Hey

...But another question, what are the main scales I should learn... I know pentectonics are one of them... Any other important ones? And how about the minor key ones?

As far as the guitar heroes not necessarily knowing much theory, or enough to get them by anyway, you're right. I still don't think it's all that necessary. I guess it just depends on your goals.

Me, I only know the basics anyway. I guess after so much time I became interested in the stuff, but mainly only the stuff that was necessary as it was to speak the language of music as it relates to the neck.

As far as scales--another round of opinion coming up! Other than the major scale and intervals, if you know the basic minor scales (melodic and harmonic) and the blues scale and what the differences are to the major scale of each, you could play variations of these for years...

Steve

[melv]

hi hey if i was you i would buy kirks pt book and dvd i studied scales for years but really found it hard to do much with them i have had pt about 4 months now ; which is more about numbers a lot easier than scales and can be used for any style of music all the best mel.

[Ledhead V-2]

Originally Posted by Hey

But another question, what are the main scales I should learn... I know pentectonics are one of them... Any other important ones? And how about the minor key ones?

I've been wondering about the importance of learning scales myself. About a year or so ago, I tore out a page of "need-to-know" scales from Guitar Player, I believe it was, and they claim that gods such as Page, Slash, and Zakk Wylde use only three scales as the basis of all their solos. They stress the importance of learning these simple scales and then improvising on your own. I don't have the names of them handy right now, but I'll see if I can post them tomorrow.

Anyway, what I'm really asking is -- is the mastering of scales that critical to learning to play? I heard others say that they're really just a waste of time.

[Kirk Lorange]

Hi, LH V-2.

I reckon it's important to know what scales are ... and that's it. Most teachers advocate learning them in all positions and practicing them. I don't. The private PlaneTalkers' Forum (for people who have bought my book) is full of players who have learned and practiced them and are now desperate to forget them, to break out of the boring, restrictive, non-melodic traps they find themselves in. I personally haven't thought or worried about or wondered about scales since about 1975, and I've done a lot playing in that time, almost all of it improvised ... making it up as I go. If it's the art of soloing you're looking into, there is a better way, an easier way, a fool proof way of negotiating any tune, any chord progression.

So, no, it's not imperative that you practice scales endlessly, but at least know what they are. Despite their scary sounding Greek names, there's nothing complicated about them. They're just ways (too many ways) of organizing the 12 notes into batches. But don't be fooled into thinking that to play solos and improvise you need to know all your scales ... you don't. Chords are all you need to know.

[Hey]

So then how do you solo then with just chords? just make it up with the chord position?

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by Hey

So then how do you solo then with just chords? just make it up with the chord position?

You need to be able to see chords for what they really are: a selection of notes that stretch from one end of the fretboard to the other. Once you can do that, you can use those notes as primary melody notes. You also need to see that a piece of music comes one chord at a time, so if you can see those patterns of chord tones changing as the song progresses, then your melody notes will always be 'right' for that moment in time, no matter how tricky the progression may seem to someone trying to juggle half a dozen or more scales, modes and boxes.

PlaneTalk describes a very efficient way to 'see' the fretboard in order to achieve the above.

[allthumbs]

Just as an aside, I spent a couple of hours jamming over Red House by Hendrix. I looked at the tab to see what was up. Basicly it is just playing around with the notes in 7th chords that gives it it's flavour. Pretty easy to get that vibe going once you can see it.

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by Hey

People say music thero is bad and blocks up your creativity...

Mate, that's complete rubbish.

You might as well say that a good racing driver should know nothing about chassis design or how engines work because it might interfere with his ability to drive. It's simply not true.

If anything is bad for creativity it's being afraid to go into new places, and just bashing through the same stuff over and over. At that applies whether you're talking badly taught formal schooling or just sticking in a narrow little style box only playing power chords or whatever.

It's actually very useful to know some theory. Far from 'blocking creativity' it should actually shine fresh light and open new doors. Only a player who didn't have any real creativity in the first place would be afraid of what new knowledge might do to them. And there's plenty of people like that around, who mistake playing sloppy trash for being 'creative'. Ignore them.

For anybody who does have a spark of creativity, music theory is a set of useful tools not a bunch of restrictive rules. Go for it.

[Ledhead V-2]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

Hi, LH V-2.

I reckon it's important to know what scales are ... and that's it. Most teachers advocate learning them in all positions and practicing them. I don't. The private PlaneTalkers' Forum (for people who have bought my book) is full of players who have learned and practiced them and are now desperate to forget them, to break out of the boring, restrictive, non-melodic traps they find themselves in. I personally haven't thought or worried about or wondered about scales since about 1975, and I've done a lot playing in that time, almost all of it improvised ... making it up as I go. If it's the art of soloing you're looking into, there is a better way, an easier way, a fool proof way of negotiating any tune, any chord progression.

So, no, it's not imperative that you practice scales endlessly, but at least know what they are. Despite their scary sounding Greek names, there's nothing complicated about them. They're just ways (too many ways) of organizing the 12 notes into batches. But don't be fooled into thinking that to play solos and improvise you need to know all your scales ... you don't. Chords are all you need to know.

Thanks, Kirk -- you've pretty much convinced me that the endless practicing of scales isn't all it's cracked up to be. I really don't know why so many people advocate this thoroughly boring routine to beginners for anyway; it seems a sure-fire way to get them to drop the guitar altogether.

But I did find it interesting that Guitar World (not Guitar Player, as I'd originally thought) claims that players like Page use just three simple scales as the basis of most of their solos. Under "Essential Scales", here's what they had to say:

"There are thousands of scales! GW has stripped away all of the advanced (and sometimes unnecessary) scales to leave you with a handful of truly useful examples. These scales have seen the most famous guitarists safely through their careers. Zakk Wylde, Slash and Jimmy Page use just the first three as the basis of most of their solos."

They then go on to list, in order of importance: A minor pentatonic, A major pentatonic, A blues, A major scale, and A natural minor.