[marinoFret]

Two months ago I discovered "Improvising".
When I first tried to improvise something with minor pentatonic scale, it sounded dull and stupid. As the time was passing, I was getting better and better......

Here's my problem:
I like improvising so much that everything I play is improvised, I improvise all the time! I stopped focusing on learning songs.

Is this wrong?!
My father complains me that I don't learn songs..... but I like the improvising better. My mother really likes my songs (I mean what I improvise while I'm playing in the living room)...

Should I focus on making my own songs, or on learning songs?

Thanks for help!

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by marinoFret

Two months ago I discovered "Improvising".
When I first tried to improvise something with minor pentatonic scale, it sounded dull and stupid. As the time was passing, I was getting better and better......

Here's my problem:
I like improvising so much that everything I play is improvised, I improvise all the time! I stopped focusing on learning songs.

Is this wrong?!
My father complains me that I don't learn songs..... but I like the improvising better. My mother really likes my songs (I mean what I improvise while I'm playing in the living room)...

Should I focus on making my own songs, or on learning songs?

Thanks for help!

Marinofret--

There's nothing wrong with choosing to only improvise. However you decide, you will begin to make a mark on your styles.

You're going to get a whole range of opinions with this. But let me just briefly tell you my story:

I began learning and am very good today at learning songs. I have been in the position of needing to learn songs overnight.

But the key is that even though I have been heavily into learning songs, it takes improvisation to pull it off most of the time because often there's just not enough time or effort wanted to play the song 'exact'. So I learn the basics of the song, the main riffs, whatever else is important to the song, and then go from there. People love it.

But here's the downside to only learning songs all the time: my improvisational skills have suffered.

So the best answer is to do both. Just like anything else in life, balance is really the key.

On the other side of the coin are players like Kirk, who are masters at improv. He also can know basically what to play quickly because he enhances his improv skills by his knowledge of how the basic song is constructed (sorry Kirk. I could be totally wrong. Please correct me). So either way works.

Steve

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

Marinofret--
On the other side of the coin are players like Kirk, who are masters at improv. He also can know basically what to play quickly because he enhances his improv skills by his knowledge of how the basic song is constructed (sorry Kirk. I could be totally wrong. Please correct me).

You got it pretty much right, Steve. Improvising isn't pure invention ... it's more like playing with the bits and pieces that you already know are 'right'. I break it down to knowing first of all the key -- that sets the scene and lets me know what to expect -- but more importantly the 'chord of the moment' which lets me know what I can and can't do right NOW. Music is a bit like life itself ... there is only ever NOW, so if you can get it right, you've got it all right. That mindset applies whether I'm playing along to a piece or just solo invention. There's always a 'chord of the moment' happening whether you hear it or not.

I know what you mean marinofret ... once you do start dabbling with improvisation, it's difficult to buckle down and get whole tunes learned and practiced up. It seems almost meaningless to do so ... why try and freeze a piece of music into just one arrangement when it can be played in so many other ways? I wouldn't worry about it ... if that's what you're enjoying doing right now, keep on doing it.

[LeeB]

I read recently that David Gilmour considers his Improvising to be "structured".. not just noodling around in a scale(s). He said this influence came from The Beatles.

[eddiez152]

Boy that leads me to an interesting senerio.
One song - Mr.Bojangles. Assorted artists. Nitty Gritty Dirt Band - John Denver - Neil Diamond - Kirks version - Mine, and many others for sure.
On the keyboard I tend to play to the note. On the guitar, what ever it takes to make it "a tune sound alike". In all what ever makes you feel good.
eddiez152

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by marinoFret

Here's my problem:
I like improvising so much that everything I play is improvised, I improvise all the time! I stopped focusing on learning songs.

I'm pretty similar. I really enjoy just improvising and noodling about. The danger though is that I can neglect skills that I probably will need at some stage - at least, that's the way I see it.

To take an example - timing. Many new players hate metronomes or anything that seems to force you to play in a rigid and 'rule bound' way. But if we simply avoid the issue it's going to be hard to ever play with other people. So I'm trying to get into the habit of using a drum track some of the time (or even the hated metronome, now and again) and at least adding some structure to my improvising.

Another thing I do is to have a dozen or so simple songs in my working folder. When I sit down I work through them as close to "as written" as possible. One verse, or whatever, is usually all I manage before I start messing around, changing the tempo, experimenting with what else I can do with that chord progression, adding another chord to see what happens, and so on. But at least I'm still working on (and improving) those songs as I go.

I'm hoping to develop both sides - the freedom and creativity of improvising, and the structure and discipline of learning 'by the book'. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I just improvise too much I will start kidding myself that I'm better than I really am. I'm sure that learning set songs and exercises will be useful, and I also feel that it gives me a 'reality check' too.

Good luck with whichever path you choose. It's all good.

Cheers,

Chris

[marinoFret]

Originally Posted by Chris C

I really enjoy just improvising and noodling about.

When I improvise, I try not to just noodle around.
I try to add chords (power chords, major or minor, sometimes only intervals: root + 3rd, root + b3rd, ...) in my improvisation, especially when I don't have a backing track.

[marinoFret]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

I know what you mean marinofret ... once you do start dabbling with improvisation, it's difficult to buckle down and get whole tunes learned and practiced up. It seems almost meaningless to do so ... why try and freeze a piece of music into just one arrangement when it can be played in so many other ways? I wouldn't worry about it ... if that's what you're enjoying doing right now, keep on doing it.

Thanks, it means me a lot, especially when I hear it from you.

[jon_stggt]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

more importantly the 'chord of the moment' which lets me know what I can and can't do right NOW. Music is a bit like life itself ... there is only ever NOW,

Kirk not only are you a bringer of music, you speak the words of a truly spiritually enlightened Being. Often, or should I say always when playing guitar, my mind is projecting, where am I going next! Now to be present in the eternity of every moment... Now that could really change my guitar playing. Taking on more of a feeling than a thinking.

[Chris C]

Originally Posted by marinoFret

When I improvise, I try not to just noodle around.
I try to add chords (power chords, major or minor, sometimes only intervals: root + 3rd, root + b3rd, ...) in my improvisation, especially when I don't have a backing track.

Me too.

Improvising is what I love, and I know that I'm terrible at plodding through set lessons, so I try to work with what my natural style and strengths seem to be. So - like you - I try to add a bit of underlying method to my 'noodling'. So I might jot down a bunch of chords in a certain key and slowly add extras, and variations and so on. And sometimes I just let the fingers choose - make a few 'wrong' decisions, and so on. See what comes out of it.

I still have a sheet of paper that an experienced guitar player gave me, with some reasonably basic chords on, and I still often use it as a starting point to warm up with.

It just says:

• A - D - E7 - (Key of A)
  D - G - A7 - (Key of D)
  G - C - D7 - (Key of G)
  C - F - G7 - (Key of C)
  E - A - B7 - (Key of E)
  Am - Dm - E7 - (Key of Am)
  Em - Am - B7 - (Key of Em)

Of course, there are zillions of other chord possibilities in each key (and lots more keys) but I've had many happy hours just noodling through that list. Changing the order, the strumming and tempo, adding and changing chords, etc. And along the way you 'discover' quite a few familiar songs too.

Cheers,

Chris
PS Your English is excellent. I wish I had a half way decent second language....

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by jon_stggt

... you speak the words of a truly spiritually enlightened Being ...

Thanks, jon, but I think that may be taking it a bit too far ... I know if Clancy reads this she'll have a quiet smile to herself.

[krissovo]

Strangely enough I have been going through a similar phase, just messing about mostly over blues and more recently in a classic rock style. So much I neglected a lot but what I think happened to me is that during this phase I actually listened to music and tried to feel it. So i listened to the rhythm, the beat and the sound and I think it has made me focus more so I play with more feeling......not a bad thing!

The result.....well tonight I have almost nailed my favorite Rory Gallagher song down in no time at all. Seriously I could play after 2 hours "Bad Penny" to reasonable pub player standard, including the Solo and the 4 different riffs that he plays. If i tried this before my improv phase.....NO CHANCE.

Keep going with what makes you happy, once you find something that you want to do a cover of you will be much better for it. As long as you keep pushing yourself further and do not stagnate then no harm done.

[marinoFret]

Originally Posted by Chris C

PS Your English is excellent. I wish I had a half way decent second language....

Thanks!

I'm always worried that you are not going to understand what I want to say...
...but now I see that you do understand me!

PS I always use a spell checker.

[splitgitara]

Whel,Marino I like improvising and learning songs so you should try to make your own song.I do it...

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by marinoFret

Should I focus on making my own songs, or on learning songs?

Like I said before, I don't have much experience in learning solely by improvising. But I do see a potential problem only learning by improvising (and don't get me wrong, I have a short attention span, and I love to just 'go off' and play what I want, and I do). And that is that it's possible that you might not want to learn or understand what kinds of techniques that are out there that are 'successful'. This is a great way to gain understanding and a great way to guage how you're progressing. There's always room for both.

I think there's a difference between 'making my own songs' / noodling with stuff and learning how to improvise a la Plane Talk.

But you'll figure it all out! You've got some great help from here.

Steve