[justinthyme]

When I'm trying to jam with backing tracks I often find myself getting lost, even when I have the chords written down in front of me. I don't know if this is a function of getting older and having decreasing concentration, or what.

Does anyone else have this problem?

Is it something that will improve with, say, increased familiarity with the fretboard or the tune itself?

Any tips to improve the situation?

[737blues]

Hit some points with me too Steve. I have trouble with remembering stuff as well and if I understand you correctly, making a sort of quick reference road map through the piece should assist with the PT approach too?

[bmurnahan]

Doesn't notation do the same, Bob? It's certainly more kosher than tab, but I always remember a John Williams (classical guitarist, Segovia protege) documentary in which he said that his last goal was to be able to improvise, that he needed notation in front of him to tell him what to play. I was dumbfounded when I heard that! It was many years ago now, however, but what it told me at the time was that John's ear training needed work.

I suppose it could. I do see a distiction between not being able to improvise and having a good ear however. Some classical musicians just do not spend time working on improvising but can still analyze music by ear as it passes by.

What I meant by the tab comment is that it's easy to understand, doesn't take the time commitment as learning to read notation does and it's easily available. I have had many students that taught themselves to play using tab and could actually play at a high level but had not spent any time training the ear. I always stress ear training in my lessons.

Don't get me wrong though. I like tab as a teaching tool and can actually be used to help train the ear in some ways. Even though you have the notes in front of you, you still have to listen for things in the music like rhythm, phrasing, etc.

Yes, and I'd play 33 rpm albums at 16 rpm, pretty much half speed, which dropped the pitch down an octave so I wouldn't need to retune much, and scrutinize the sounds at half speed. Did you do the same? I'd listen to chords over and over and over again listening for the chord tones, then searching for them on the fretboard. That was great ear training ... you find a couple of tones, then you have to ignore them and listen for the others ... very intense concentration required for that!

Been there done that. It can be a maddening process!

This is a good topic. You have made some great points here and hopefully inspired people to work on their ear.

Best Wishes,

Bob

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by 737blues

Hit some points with me too Steve. I have trouble with remembering stuff as well and if I understand you correctly, making a sort of quick reference road map through the piece should assist with the PT approach too?

Well, say what you mean again. Do you mean that the PT approach my help with the quick reference roadmap making?

In a broader sense, the PT approach helps with understanding the basic changes that you will be used to hearing over and over again. The PT approach also helps tremendously with the visuals of those changes (the changes in a progression).

Is this what you mean??

Steve

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by bmurnahan

...I do see a distiction between not being able to improvise and having a good ear however. Some classical musicians just do not spend time working on improvising but can still analyze music by ear as it passes by...

This is a very good point. I think of myself as having a pretty good ear, but my weakness is in solo improvisation (it's all relative, I tell some people that and they just say, 'yah, right, whatever!!') I have found myself dipping into the same bag o' tricks for years. But when it comes to being creative, I'm really great. I can craft solos that sound good. I suppose this is why I love to record so much!

Confessions from an old man,

Steve

[bmurnahan]

I have found myself dipping into the same bag o' tricks for years.

You could probably say this about everyone that has ever played an instrument.
We all have our stock stuff.

But when it comes to being creative, I'm really great. I can craft solos that sound good. I suppose this is why I love to record so much!

This quote reminds me of Steely Dan. Fagen and Becker have a reputation of putting studio musicians through the paces to get what they want. I don't know if you know the story behind the solo that Jay Graydon played in Peg. It was a 13 bar solo if I recall correctly and it took him 6 hours to get it recorded. It was all pieced together from various things he played in that time frame.

Best Wishes,

Bob

[chris_73]

Yes, and I'd play 33 rpm albums at 16 rpm, pretty much half speed, which dropped the pitch down an octave so I wouldn't need to retune much, and scrutinize the sounds at half speed.

I often get lost in a song when it´s just a little to fast for my hands. First I´m a little late on a note, than a little more at the next and so on....

I use a Winamp-Tool (Take it Easy) to avoid that and speed up when I get comfortable with the speed.

But maybe I just want to avoid ear training.... doing finger trainig instead....

[si16]

Steely Dan sessions must have been some gig, probably intimidating more than enjoyable.

I like the story of how Steve Gadd turned the tables on them. When they called him in to record Aja I imagine they were expecting (possibly looking forward to) him struggling a bit like Jay Graydon. They were amazed when he played the seven minute chart with its two drum solos, of which he had no prior knowledge, perfectly on only the second take.

What a player.

[737blues]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

Well, say what you mean again. Do you mean that the PT approach my help with the quick reference roadmap making?

In a broader sense, the PT approach helps with understanding the basic changes that you will be used to hearing over and over again. The PT approach also helps tremendously with the visuals of those changes (the changes in a progression).

Is this what you mean??

Steve

Closer to the latter. PT is the tool to find appropriate notes to use with the chord tones. No problems with that idea. I was just 'thinking aloud' that I've never actually tried the obvious step of writing down the progression, both as a preparation and a reference, before attempting an improvisation with PT. (helpful I'm hoping, because I have a tendency to lose track of the progression I'm trying to PT over)

[solidwalnut]

Originally Posted by 737blues

Closer to the latter. PT is the tool to find appropriate notes to use with the chord tones. No problems with that idea. I was just 'thinking aloud' that I've never actually tried the obvious step of writing down the progression, both as a preparation and a reference, before attempting an improvisation with PT. (helpful I'm hoping, because I have a tendency to lose track of the progression I'm trying to PT over)

I see what you're saying. Writing it down will probably help you visualize the progression (say, I, IV, V) and then transfer that vision to improv using the PT COTM (you know it's I, IV, V in the key of A. Then you equate that I=A, IV=D, etc. Then you translate that into the appropriate areas on the fretboard). At least that's how my brain works.

But what I also mean is something like this: Almost all modern songs are crafted so if you look at it as a whole, you will see repeatable patterns. The verse goes like this...the chorus goes like this...and it's all repeated. Once you get a grip on the melody structure of the tune and then the chord structure, you've got the song right where you want it!

I guess what I'm saying is that it's important to not just see a song as a collection of linear chords and just following that to try and keep up, but to gain an understanding of where the song is going so you can eventually predict your moves with confidence.

I hope this makes sense!

Steve

[737blues]

Originally Posted by solidwalnut

..... I hope this makes sense!

Steve

Yes, it does thanks steve. Particularly the bit about mapping out the various parts of a song, bridge/verse/etc! Cheers.

John