[scotty_b]

I am curious to see how the PT guys would approach something like this. It is just a one chord vamp over a drum beat I put together to practice with.
It goes for just over a minute, which can be an very long time when there is nothing going on harmonically, and so all interest has to be generated by the soloist.
Looking foward to hearing some takes and approaches to this

[allthumbs]

Originally Posted by scotty_b

Hey guys
Thanks for the response Kirk
I haven't recorded anything over this yet - won't have a chance for a few days.
From a theoretical perspective I would consider the use of scales (dorian/mixolydian/blues) to play something closely related to the harmony. I would also use the diminished scale, the super-locrian and lydian b7 mode to create tension. To break it down further from there use of arpeggios, intervallic sequences through scales and chromatic movement between chord tones would all be good. In fact they would all be good anyway so that one avoids there playing of scale tones consecutively.
As nothing is really going on harmonically the use of dissonance would be important to create some movement in the lines played. Someone like Larry Carlton essentially builds arpeggios on top of one another to create melodic lines, but he can end up quite oustide the hamrony doing this. Larry is (IMHO) such an incredible player and has a huge vocabulary of ideas that he can go from inside to out very easily and still make it seamless.
This sort of thing would typically occur in funk or modern jazz. I was just curious to see how you would approach this, as I appreciate and respect your love of chord tones, but it is such a different thing to create something interesting when they are removed.
Marty, the Em scale would still work - it contains the same notes as the A mixolydian. Put it up and let us hear it!
I will hopefully get a chance to do some more recording on Friday afternoon, so will put up something then using the ideas I outlined.

Ouch. All that made my head hurt. Read it two or three times. Whew. Need asprin. I think I will keep it simple. A friend of mine who loves scales told me I was playing a kind of pentatonic scale with a 9. Who knew. I just play through the chords or chord in this case.

[scotty_b]

AT, you should do whatever works for you/moves you musically. I understand that people can feel overwhelmed by all these silly names, but they are just a way of organising note groupings, be it melodically or harmonically. I have not read Plane Talk, but from I can ascertain Kirk has approached the topic from a different perspective, yet he is still looking at groupings of notes around a harmony.
I also realised the error of my ways in saying that the Em scale was a mixolydian mode, it is in fact dorian. I was viewing the Em as the V chord of A7, which would place it in the parent key of D, but in fact you were thinking of the Em scale, which has one note different. It still works though, as the C note within the scale gives the bluesy minor 3rd effect.
And if that makes no sense don't worry about it. Theory is entirely retrospective in its approach anyway. Mozart was criticised for having too many notes in his operas, because it was 'wrong'. But how would Mozart view someone such as Liszt, and how would Lizst view Charlie Parker, and how would Charlie Parker view Ornette Coleman? Hard to know, but these innovative figures all broke the mould, but have now become acceptable from a theoretical position (well maybe Ornette still has a way to go before he is accepted into the fold!). Make sounds that are pleasing to you, and if you want to classify it for yourself that's great, and if not then that is great as well.

[allthumbs]

All I was thinking was an Emin chord with extensions. I don't think in scales at all. Never have. My Dyslexia won't allow that kind of linear thinking. From what I understand. My ear heard the Eminor chord which is the relative minor of G. I was hearing elements of the G chord because the A13 extensions are very close to Playing a G chord. As long as I stayed safely tucked into the Em groove, I was jamming over the top of the stacked triads which accounts for the strong jazz feel of my improv.
I obviously wasn't consciously thinking all this at the time. My ears just happened to tune into the Emin aspect of it, mostly because I didn't check the bass to see where the root was. Otherwise i would have clicked into it being in A. I kind of like the spin it put on the tune though. A happy accident.
I will do another one in A and see where that takes me.

[Sidney Schwartz]

Here's another PT contribution. I know very little about scales and modes and don't use them at all while playing.

Sid

[allthumbs]

Cool Sid. You growled your way through that one. Chunky tone.

[737blues]

Good job Sid. Maybe it needs something 'outfront' like that for a tune to hold it's own against the backing track.

[Jim]

I will add a take later, but my "method" is more like nocat (Ben) - to play mostly by ear, hearing the melody in my head and trying to bring that directly to the fretboard, always having both scales and PT as points of reference to use if I start to stray. I'm getting better at playing by ear (although the last couple of weeks I doubted that ability and fell back on just scale playing which bored me and you) - but I like feeling the melody I want (which I do when composing classical music as well) and then being able to carry that melody out, in whatever key, at whatever speed, on the guitar. It's something that took a while to develop and I'm still developing it, but it seems to produce the best results for me when I trust my ear and follow the melody in my head.

Jim

[Kirk Lorange]

Originally Posted by Jim

- but I like feeling the melody I want (which I do when composing classical music as well) and then being able to carry that melody out, in whatever key, at whatever speed, on the guitar.

Jim

I'm curious about the classical music you compose, Jim. Is there anything recorded? I dabbled myself, years and years ago, composing classical guitar pieces -- then discovered slide and the blues -- but it's quite an undertaking. Not being a reader/notator made it all the more difficult. How do you go about it? Do your compositions get played and heard anywhere?

[scotty_b]

Originally Posted by Jim

but it seems to produce the best results for me when I trust my ear and follow the melody in my head.

Jim

I find I always play best when I sing as I play. I have even attempted the George Benson scat and solo thing a few times live. It came off well once.
I will also admit that at times I forget and get caught up in the moment and try and play as fast as possible. Last night I played at the annual general dinner of a large insurance company, and there were a lot of drunk ladies who were really into guitar playing. I fell into the trap a few times of going for flashy but not much musical substance. There was lots of sweeping arpeggios and tapping and sextuplet runs - they all yelled and cheered which made me go up another gear. I thought about it afterwards and came to the conclusion that it was silly of me to do that. Oh well!
One the things I admire about the true masters of improvisation - such as Charlie Parker - is that the musical substance/interest is there irrespective of the speed of the line. A lot of the 'shred' community sound cool when playing at hyper-sonic speed, but when they play over a ballad it doesn't always work so well.
I have really enjoyed this discussion on this topic - in here and in some of the private messages I have received.
Thanks guys

[6string]

That was neat Guys

[Jim]

Originally Posted by Kirk Lorange

I'm curious about the classical music you compose, Jim. Is there anything recorded? I dabbled myself, years and years ago, composing classical guitar pieces -- then discovered slide and the blues -- but it's quite an undertaking. Not being a reader/notator made it all the more difficult. How do you go about it? Do your compositions get played and heard anywhere?

Hi Kirk,

I have a rather large collection of original compositions, and some arrangements and transcriptions, at my classical music site:

Classical Music

Please have a listen and let me know what you think. I've been composing for as long as I've been playing guitar - since around 1967 - and they both help one another. I started with Piano when I was 8. It is indeed a huge undertaking - for instance it took me 6 months to compose my Piano Concerto, but another 6 months to extract and proof and print the parts as well as the conductors score. This was composed as a commission which was supposed to include a premiere in St. Peterburg Russia in 2000, but the conductor of the orchestra was fired, bla, bla, bla and it never was performed. But a good friend loved it and did a really realistic rendering of it that you can hear on my site. Some of the recordings are live - from concerts or rehearsals, and some are renderings. It's tough to get a large work performed -- very tough although I have been lucky to get some nice performances, which is one reason I love guitar and the Blues - I can compose and play and have it heard all by myself. I also had a publisher for most of my works, but it was a startup that went out of business, so now only one piece is published - and I publish the rest myself.

As far as how I go about it - well, that would literally take a book to explain because each work is different. I've literally dreamed entire symphonic works and other times I get a commission and it's just hard work and sweating the details and harmonization and orchestration, transposition of instruments, etc. My undergrad major was in music composition, but if I had to do it again, I think I'd go for guitar - seriously! I did get a independent course with Elliot Fisk (a student of Segovia) in classical guitar (and received honors in it) but I never did keep up my classical guitar playing - I wish I did. But, now....I just love the Blues so much!


Jim

[Kirk Lorange]

Wow, Jim, that's quite the body of work! Very impressive. I'll have a good listen when I get a chance, but I did skim over a couple, it all sounds very professional. As you say though, once you get bitten by the Blues ...

[Kirk Lorange]

Scotty_B? Jim? Where are you guys? I'm waiting to hear some takes over this one chord vamp!

[allthumbs]

Me too. I had wanted to do another one in the right key but, life kinda jumped on me with both feet in the last couple of days.

[scotty_b]

Hey
Been a bit distracted by lots of work this week - I have five gigs, plus teaching and I have been recording HSC student compositions during the day for various high schools.
I think I have worked 75 hours this week so far, so that is why I haven't recorded anything yet. I have just down four hours of mixing this morning for the HSC, so I will let my brain clear a little (sleep) and if I get a chance to put something down before I have to pack for tonight's gig I will do so, otherwise I will try for tonight after the gig or in the morning.