[Noodler]

Bland Street Bloom 3:26-4:00

Yeah, that's the good stuff. Whole song is good, but that chugg-chugg start-stop stuff is the GEAR. So what sort of metal is that song (to find more like it)? Yep, metal is about power. I'm sure that's why we like it. It makes you feel powerful, too.

BTW I think Indie is the new, real alternative.

Easily the best band of that sort I've heard since System of a Down. A new favourite.

[TomSlatter]

Originally Posted by Noodler

Bland Street Bloom 3:26-4:00

Yeah, that's the good stuff. Whole song is good, but that chugg-chugg start-stop stuff is the GEAR. So what sort of metal is that song (to find more like it)? Yep, metal is about power. I'm sure that's why we like it. It makes you feel powerful, too.

BTW I think Indie is the new, real alternative.

Easily the best band of that sort I've heard since System of a Down. A new favourite.

Skith (now sadly defunct) ... well I've heard them called 'math metal' and compared to Dillinger Escape Plan, who I've never really listened to. MySpace.com - The Dillinger Escape Plan - Morris Plains, NEW JERSEY - Metal / Hardcore / Alternative - www.myspace.com/dillingerescapeplan

[Noodler]

Math metal? Makes me feel smart.

If I found Dillinger Escape Plan when I was into SOAD, I would have loved it. Or even Steve Vai stage. Can hear a lot of influences in there. Lots of variety. Prett cool. 'bout an 8. But Sikth'd be a 10 for metal for me. Thanks for getting me onto that.

Funnily enough though, I think if I was going to buy an album, I'd probably buy Escape Plan for the variety, but it's not straight metal.

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by TomSlatter

Oh Grunge absolutely existed. How much of it was a deliberate marketing construction and how much of it sprang up 'naturally' I don't know. But I do know that the genre of grunge:- the way of dressing, the almost punky attitude - a reaction against the ultra produced hair-metal bands that were mainstream at the time - was definitely real.

Grunge (the "scene", not necessarily the music) struck me as more of a "hardcore emo" thing.....or maybe you could call emo "grunge lite". Punkers had a very vibrant, hardcore drive, while grungers seemed more nihilistic and "gloomy". As far as the way of dressing, punkers were/are mostly very flamboyant and their style calculated - extreme hairdos (colored mohawks come to mind immediately), lots of leather, spikes and chains, big boots, etc. Grungers always seemed to me to have more of a very indifferent, sloppy style - flannel shirts (one of the "trademark" grunge things), baggy jeans, ragged shoes, etc. But all of this is very general and probably varies from region to region, which is one more reason that "genre-izing" is so difficult and elusive.

Originally Posted by TomSlatter

When does rock become heavy metal? There's no clear distinction, but I'd say if the harmony is more modal than blues, if the distorted guitars drive things, if the lyrics address masculinity and/or power in some way you've probably metal.

Rock will use more full note chords rather than power chords, is more likely to use standard pop music chord progressions, will sing about love, and in rock you don't necessarily have to be able to play.

Of course there are loads of bands that have rock and metal elements. It's pretty hard to make clear distinctions.

Mmmmhhhh. Here's another place where, as you say, it's pretty hard to make clear distinctions. Bands like Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the Scorpions, Ronnie James Dio, Ratt, Def Leppard, Thin Lizzy, etc. kinda blow all the above conceptions out of the water. All of them used a lot of power chords, most of them had very skilled guitarists, the distorted guitar drove their music, and they didn't often use standard pop progressions. If you want to go more modern, Blink182 and the Foo Fighters both make extensive use of power chords, don't have terribly skilled guitarists, and bear no resemblance to blues-styled rhythms.....yet I'd hardly consider them metal by any stretch of the imagination.

Words are a wholly inadequate medium to describe music. It's like trying to describe what "green" tastes like, or what color "happiness" is. When you get into defining genres of music using specific terms, you can have a certain band neatly slotted until you listen to another one of their songs, and find out that your definitions have just been thrown completely out the window. For example - listen to "Lying Eyes" by the Eagles. They're pop, or maybe pop-country, right? Sure. Now listen to "Life In The Fast Lane" or "Those Shoes". Whoa, what happened? They're classic rockers! Now put on "Hotel California".....wait a minute, are they progressive rock?!?!? How about "New York Minute"? Bleccchhhhh, they're actually an "easy listening" band!!!

Admittedly, a lot of the more current/modern bands fit more neatly into well-organized little boxes (mostly because they're generic, formula/market driven, and targeted to a specific audience). Metallica all pretty much sounds the same to me, as did Pantera, and you'll probably never hear Killswitch Engage, Children of Bodom, etc. do a power ballad or "pop" type tune.

IMHO, the "genre-ization" thing is a modern innovation and reflects the state of today's mainstream music. Bands don't just 'come together', play the kind of music they want to play and 'get discovered' along the way so much anymore.....they're 'created', sculpted along specific lines for mass market appeal, and their music is squeezed into a 'formula' designed to sell records to a meticulously polled target audience which the record companies have determined to be the "big spenders" on music. Talent is secondary to appeal - if you can't sing, there's always Antares to 'fix' your pitch and make you sound good (at least in the studio). Mediocre guitarist? Heck, we can fix that in the mix with lots of effects and overdubs....just look good and sell lots of records! If you think that's all a bunch of hooey, check out this video to see what kind of miracles can be worked - YouTube - How to Create a Sexy Pop Star

[Noodler]

Haha. You got me.

Yeah, I'd watch that clip all the way through just because the girl was pretty. I think of Milk Inc, Katy Perry, Miley Cirus, et al. Heck even Trace Atkins.

However I do like pop music, and I would make the following points in defence of that. The guy who wrote that hook was a professional writer was he not? They used a machine to correct her pitch, so what we actually heard was near pitch-perfect. It also would take some effort to do all that make-up and costume changes. Most people like reverb and there was lots of nice reverb there. And the girl was pretty. It is entertainment! Lorrie Collins was pretty too. Part of the appeal. Also, don't we all try to make music that people will like? So is your point simply that the music isn't honest because it was manipulated? If so, how is that different to Eddie Kramer's work of taping guitars and overlaying the tracks backwards, etc?

This is a funny satire of what you're saying, Stratrat:

YouTube - FG: STREET PRESS: Act 1

Forlorn Gaze...

[TomSlatter]

Originally Posted by Stratrat

Mmmmhhhh. Here's another place where, as you say, it's pretty hard to make clear distinctions. Bands like Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, the Scorpions, Ronnie James Dio, Ratt, Def Leppard, Thin Lizzy, etc. kinda blow all the above conceptions out of the water. All of them used a lot of power chords, most of them had very skilled guitarists, the distorted guitar drove their music, and they didn't often use standard pop progressions. If you want to go more modern, Blink182 and the Foo Fighters both make extensive use of power chords, don't have terribly skilled guitarists, and bear no resemblance to blues-styled rhythms.....yet I'd hardly consider them metal by any stretch of the imagination.

I agree with a lot of that. Blink182 are definitely punk however- cos of the use of major key chords - they even use primary major chords in a few of their songs. They only genres of metal to do that are glam/hair metal from the 80's (only genre of metal to sing love songs too) and some scandinavian metal.

Foo Fighters have some metal influences - vocal style on some songs, 3 3 2 rhythm on 'the best of you' (is that what it's called? Anyway 3 quavers 3 quavers 2 quavers is a very metal rhythm. ... or 8th notes if you want to be American about things )

It's often easier to say 'that part of the song is metal' than it is to say 'that song is metal'. I mean Foo Fighters have loads of love songs. That just ain't heavy metal (except glam/hair metal. but if we could erase that from history we would).

Deep Purple - yup, lots of blues but also lots of modal harmony, so i guess they span genres. Black Sabbath - probably first genuine heavy metal ever - cos of the emphasis of the flattened 5th. Flattened 5th as a functional harmony note rather than a passing note = very metal.

Yeah, musical style is best judged song by song, not band by band. And genre is something different to style.

But let's not pretend this is new. The boxing off of country and 'race' music (as it was called back then) was an artificial, marketing distinction. The fact that Elvis was a good looking white boy mattered a hell of a lot, and on the first two albums Tom Jones released in America they didn't include a picture of him cos the market would not have accepted that voice coming from a white Welsh guy. As long as there has been popular music there has been artificial marketing ideas that over simplify the real world.

Any artist that is sold to you as 'authentic' - probably isn't. Like those grungers carefully dressing as if they don't care how they dress. Everything's a pose!

[Noodler]

3 3 2 rhythm

Chug-a-chug chug-a-chug CHUGG-CHUGG.

Yeah, that is like a cliche, isn't it. Never noticed before.

The boxing off of country and 'race' music (as it was called back then) was an artificial, marketing distinction. The fact that Elvis was a good looking white boy mattered a hell of a lot

+1. Yeah, people like Little Richard had music that white parents wouldn't let their kids buy. Elvis to some extent owes his success to racism. I love Elvis, don't get me wrong, but it's a matter of history. He didn't write his own songs. I do love Elvis, so don't throw stuff at me!

Good example of style vs genre is "Behind Crimson Eyes." Definitely metal (the music) but if you turned the sound off, you'd expect grunge or Guns and Roses. To wit:

YouTube - Behind Crimson Eyes - The Bonesmen

[JessThrasher]

Off the top of my head right now these are the ones I can think of:

Death and melodic death, black and melodic black, metalcore, doom, stoner, fusion, 80's, power, progressive, neoclassical, shred, trad(traditional), sludge, viking, folk, speed.

[Noodler]

I thought black was viking....

[JessThrasher]

Black metal = Satanic (Dimmu Borgir, Satyricon, Gorgoroth)
Viking = Scandinavian Mythology/folklure (Finntroll, Amon Amarth, Opeth)

They're similar, as theyre both mostly European.

[Noodler]

And mostly from Norway?

[TomSlatter]

Originally Posted by JessThrasher

Off the top of my head right now these are the ones I can think of:

Death and melodic death, black and melodic black, metalcore, doom, stoner, fusion, 80's, power, progressive, neoclassical, shred, trad(traditional), sludge, viking, folk, speed.

Also..... white metal, classic metal, thrash metal, prog metal, grindcore, doom metal, goth metal, rap metal, math metal, industrial metal, hair metal, glam metal, NWOBHM, NWOAHM, nu-metal, funk metal, symphonic metal.

I think power metal is interesting. It's had at least two meanings: - it used to mean the same as thrash and speed metal (back in the early 80's all three refered to the Bay Area metal bands like Metallica and Megadeth), but latterly it's come to mean major chord upbeat type metal.

I love the way wiki articles make authoritative distinctions 'Speed metal was the progenator to thrash metal' etc. If you read real books that actually research things properly you see just how silly it is to make clear distinctions between one band or song.

Much more sensible to treat it like descriptions of a wine's flavour - 'this song has shades of doom metal, with hints of death and the complexity of prog metal'

.... Ever wonder where Opeth got 50% of their ideas?
Paradise Lost!:

YouTube - GothicMetal Vol.2 Track 4

YouTube - Paradise Lost - Gothic

[Noodler]

NWOBHM, NWOAHM

NKOTB?

Can you recommend some rap-metal. Something like "Fever For the Flava" by Hot Action Cop? I only ever seem to find one-hit wonders in that style.

[starsailor]

Hi Noodler, These guys classify themselves as Rap Metal but crossover into hip hop and Traditional Turkish as they're a band from Turkey called Manga don't know if you've heard of them but thought I'd post a few songs, I just reach for a translator if I want to know what they're saying

YouTube - MANGA ROCKS (rOCK bAND fROM tURKEY)

YouTube - Manga - Bir Kadın Çizeceksin

YouTube - Manga - Bitti ruya (Turkish rap metal)

Also been checking out Insane Clown Posse sort of heavy hip hop, Horror Rap, couldn't post a link to them they're quite out there language is pretty full on etc. don't know if you'd be into that and a band called Zeromind. Which you may have also heard of. I haven't been a big metal fan but it's good fun checking out the bands.

YouTube - Zeromind - Reaching Further

All the Best

Chris

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by Noodler

Can you recommend some rap-metal. Something like "Fever For the Flava" by Hot Action Cop? I only ever seem to find one-hit wonders in that style.

Never heard that song, but the couple of bands I can think of that may fit that genre are:


Saliva

P.O.D.

Senser

Senser (again)