[Doug]

I have no idea what I'm talking about, but that's never stopped me before...

I was thinking about the layout of the notes on the guitar and the fact that barre cords are moveable.

And kind of wondering why it's so easy to transpose keys on the guitar but so difficult on a piano. Then I came to the conclusion that a piano is laid out diatonically - the keys are laid out so that the tone tone semi-tone tone tone tone semi-tone is part of the key structure (white and black keys). Whereas on the guitar it's semi-tone semi-tone semi-tone... etc - chromatically.

It means that the guitar player has to learn the pattern of the different scales but doesn't have to learn a new pattern for each key.

The piano player can see the pattern of the scale laid out in black and white (at least for the key of C) but has to relearn the pattern for each key.

I saw an African xylophone the other day that was laid out chromatically - ie, no differentiation between black and white keys(maybe all xylophones are that way ) and I was wondering if it is easier to learn than a piano.

I wonder if anyone ever made a piano laid out chromatically rather than diatonically?

I wonder if anyone cares?

dum de dum...

[carol m]

Interesting thread
What is an example of a diatonic instrument, blues harp?

[Fretsource]

Carol, some diatonic instruments are:
The blues harp (diatonic harmonica)
The highland bagpipes
The melodeon (diatonic button accordeon)
My old chromatic harmonica (the lever got stuck and won't budge )

[monk]

Fretsource,
I'm surprised that you didn't mention the Pennywhistle. Not only diatonic but some are modal.

Doug,
I never once thought that you were being argumentative. My hat's off to you for starting an interesting thread that produced some interesting thoughtful dialogue. Let's do it again sometime.

My Best to All,
Monk

[monk]

Doug,
The use of barre chords to transpose would be automatic also.
That puts us one ahead of those pesky piano players.

Later,
Monk

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by monk

Fretsource,
I'm surprised that you didn't mention the Pennywhistle. Not only diatonic but some are modal.

Ah - How could I have forgotten the old Penny whistle? Mind you, they sound more microtonal than diatonic whenever I try to play them

[carol m]

Have I missed something on this thread? Sorry if I have, but what does diatonic actually mean?

[monk]

Hello carol m,

Diatonic means standard major or minor scales with 8 tones to the octave without any chromatic deviation.

Regards,
Monk

[carol m]

Thanks monk. Doesn't 'dia' mean two? If it does (and I may be wrong) what is 'two-ish' about a scale of 8 notes? Maybe it refers to the Major and Minor scales (two) but does that mean it only plays one minor scale and if so, which one?

Somehow I just know you will know the answer to this so I don't worry about asking you a 'curly' one ('curly' from where I'm coming from, that is).

[Fretsource]

Morning Carol
No - in this case "dia" means "through" or "across" as in diameter or diagram.
Diatonic instruments (assuming they have at least 15 different notes) can play the major scale, the natural minor scale and the church modes, but not the harmonic or melodic minor scales, which would require a chromatic alteration.

[carol m]

Morning Fretsource, except its midnight here. Interesting info, but what are 'church' modes? Do you kneel down and pray for guidance?

[Fretsource]

Originally Posted by carol m

Morning Fretsource, except its midnight here. Interesting info, but what are 'church' modes? Do you kneel down and pray for guidance?

Actually, it's the jazz modes that need some prayer if you want divine guidance on using them.

The original medieval church modes that survive today, and which were originally used to classify the scale structure of the church psalms and plainchant, are:
The Dorian mode DEFGABCD
The Phrygian mode EFGABCDE
The Lydian mode FGABCDEF
The Mixolydian mode GABCDEFG
Their Greek names originally and mistakenly came from how medieval monks believed that the ancient Greeks classified their music.

In the 16th century these were expanded to include 3 more modes that the church didn't use, although two were found to exist in secular music. They were:
The Ionian mode CDEFGABC (now our major scale)
The Aeolian mode ABCDEFGA (now our natural minor scale)
The Locrian mode BCDEFGAB (which existed only in theory as it sounded terrible in practice)

As sharps and flats were gradually introduced into music, it became possible to transpose those modes into any key, something that was impossible when the only available notes were natural ones.

[Fretsource]

I should've added that the Church Modes (including the later 3 additions) are just the same old Modes that often get mentioned by rock guitarists. I used their full name to distinguish them from the Jazz modes, which can't be played on diatonic instruments.

[carol m]

Now you are taking me back Fretsource. My old guitar teacher (bless him - he had to retire after a year with me!) talked about Modes and said about the Diatonic System (I had to go and search for the notes)

To hear how they sound, play these chords in a single key up the fretboard and hear the scale within the chords (Ha ha, he had a sense of humour)

I II III iv V vi VII I
Emaj/ Dm/ Em/ Fmaj/ Gmaj/ Amin/ Bdim/ Cmaj
fret3/fret5/fret7/fret8/fret10/fret12/fret14/fret15

The formatting on this site won't let me 'line them up' better, but you should get the idea (each chord played at the fret designated). Way beyond my playing skills to work that one out, but others may find it useful.

He also taught me the Amen Cadence (vi-I) ending which I now see is also called the Plagal Cadence, presumably from plainchant.

[Fretsource]

Just a quick correction, Carol, if you don't mind.
Chord I is C major in that list, (I know it was just a typo) and the Amen, or Plagal, cadence is IV - I, not vi - I

[carol m]

Of course you can correct me, Fretsource, in fact I was counting on it. Very gentlemanly of you to believe it was a typo.....the C chord vs Emajor was a case of misreading with my brain out of gear, and the iv vs vi was carelessness, plus the fact that I didn't 'know', I was just copying from the notes from back then.

Thanks for your vigilance