[r1p32]

I've read many posts mentioning following chord tones or the chord progression in improvisation, and I'm pretty confused....

I've been practicing the Pentatonic Scale for a while now. And I have to say that I really feel like I'm getting closer and closer to being able to improvise. But what I work on is trying to make it sound musical and express myself. I thought playing the scale of the key would be the way to go about improvising or lead guitar; but what does "playing around the chords" mean? Sorry I'm being unclear...

Um..Lets say a chord progression in the key of C like
C, Am, F, G, C

To try some melody over the chords should I just play with the Pentatonic Scale in mind and move the root note to C and play that over the whole progression (which is what i've been doing). Do I move the scale to the root note of the chord being played? (like playing the C pentatonic scale over a C chord, the A pentatonic over the Am. etc). Or do I find the individual notes in each chord and doodle around with those?

Is there anything particularly limiting with playing scales? Even if I experiment with the scale with 'wrong notes'?

As of now I really like playing blues and trying some lead over chord progressions i make up, but I'm asking because I'd really like to start playing Jazz and I keep hearing how 'following chords' are the way to go with improvisation in that genre.

Thanks a Lot!

[allthumbs]

As fret says, no matter how complex a chord, it only takes the 3 to be changed to a b3 to make that chord minor. No other note has that effect.
You seem to have grasped the concept of note numbers pretty well noodles. Good on ya.

[Noodler]

Thanks so much, that makes things easy to remember. So it is always the 3rd that determines major or minor. Because a major 7th has a natural 7 and a dom 7 has a b7, I was confused into thinking that sometimes lowering the higher notes changed the name to minor (since in a major 7th the major refers to the 7th note). It's so much simpler than I thought then.

To the OP, a piece of advice if you can, is also just to play lots. Lately, I have a guitar in my hands whenever I can, and often I can almost play a melody I think of straight off. Last night I put on Avenged Sevenfold's Bat County and had it worked out in 2 mins. That's not to bragg, it's just that by playing so much I guess my fingers are starting to just go straight to the notes automatically. If I think about it, it stops! But it's only for melodies. Chords are a different matter entirely, except power chords of course. Sit with a guitar when you watch TV, especially Rage/JTV/Video Hits. If you're a couch poatato like me, eventually your axe will become like an extension of yourself.

Also, if you are using scales to improvise, use different positions. They'll inspire you to play different licks. The main way that people learn to improvise with scales is to learn a "lick library". Then you can just string them together. John Mayer (the nerdy guy) can play just like BB King by doing that, which annoyed BB King quite a bit!

[monk]

Noodler,

Here a some "general rules" for adding extensions and tensions to chords.

The most common extension for the Major 7 is the 9th.
1 3 5 7 9

The most common extensions for the Minor 7 are 9th and 11th.
1 b3 5 b7 9 11

The most common extensions for the Dominant 7 are 9, 11 and 13.
1 3 5 b7 9 11 13

Some players, mostly jazz, prefer the #11 instead.
1 3 5 b7 9 #11

6 and 13 are the same note. When added to a Major or minor, it's 6. On a Dominant it's 13.

The Major chord can take a 6 or a 6 and 9.
1 3 5 6 or 1 3 5 6 9

The Minor chord can also take a 6 or 6 and 9.
1 b3 5 6 or 1 b3 5 6 9

Dominant 13 is:
1 3 5 b7 9 13

The Major 7 can also take a #11 extension.
1 3 5 7 9 #11

Dominant 7 chords can take b5, #5, b9 or #9.

You would never use a b9 on a Major 7 or Minor 7.

Some modern jazz players use #5 and b5 on Major 7.

The Minor chord can take a natural 7 but it's generally used as a moving line rather than an ending chord.
1 b3 5 7

Some of these harmonies sound good the first time you play them. Others tend to be an acquired taste.

Also keep in mind that in common practice chords are generally "thinned out". In theory, a Dominant 13th chord has 7 notes. Since the guitar only has 6 strings something has to go. First choice is usually the root. Next is the fifth.

Hope this is helpful.

Regards,
Monk

[Noodler]

I'd like to retract this:

SO there's no such thing as an extension beyond a major 7th then

I don't drink or do drugs, but I have no idea of what I was thinking when I typed that. Sorry

Yes, thanks Monk. I have cut and pasted it as a wordpad to ponder over a bit. I am really enjoying different smooth jazz chord flavours at the moment, especially major 7ths (I've always liked 9ths).

Just to clarify, when you have to drop notes, when playing an 11th or a 13th are you saying that the root is the first to go or the first to keep? Which notes are the ones you can drop that the ear still hears, even though you aren't playing them? (ie implied?).

It also occurred to me that since jazz uses extended chords, giving you more chord tones, it makes sense that chromatism goes with jazz.

[Noodler]

Originally Posted by monk

Dominant 7 chords can take b5, #5, b9 or #9.

Some modern jazz players use #5 and b5 on Major 7.

Regards,
Monk

So when can you "slip in" a diminished chord? Obviously the V7 can be substitued for a diminshed from what you've said above, but when else?

[monk]

Noodler,
I screwed up the spelling of the Dominant 13. It should be
1 3 5 b7 9 11 13.
So you might want to go into your WordPad doc and correct that.

I'll rephrase my statement on thinning out chords to clarify.

In a complex chord, the first note to be eliminated would be the root. The next note to be eliminated would be the fifth.

This holds true for comping, rhythm or chord soloing. The important thing to remember is that context is important. You could slip some "jazz chords" into a Chicago Blues or Western Swing tune and no one would bat an eye. But if you drop a "ruptured 13 with a demolished 9" into a Bluegrass song you might get lynched.

As far as diminished chords go, I tend to think of them as dominant chords. Some theory/chord books describe them as "connecting" chords but when used this way they actually function as dominant7b9 chords.

Cmaj7-C#dim7-Dm7-D#dim7-Em7.......

In this example, the C#dim7 is functioning as a rootless A7b9 resolving to its Tonic, Dm. The D#dim7 functions as a rootless B7b9 resolving to its Tonic, Em.

An example of a diminished chord functioning as a connector would be G6-Gdim7-Am7. In this progression, the two lowest voices are static while the two top voices move down in half steps.
At the 2nd fret this would be:

GxEBDx GxEBbDbx GxEACx

In this case, the harmonies are a result of voice leading.

Chromaticism, like a good Chianti, goes with anything.

Regards,
Monk

[Noodler]

I've just updated my wordpad doc. Thanks. Is it correct that a 6/9 is 1,3,5,6,9 ?

if you drop a "ruptured 13 with a demolished 9" into a Bluegrass song you might get lynched.

Classic quote. Love the demolished 9!

I'll have to grab my guitar and play that example. Cool.

In this example, the C#dim7 is functioning as a rootless A7b9 resolving to its Tonic, Dm. The D#dim7 functions as a rootless B7b9 resolving to its Tonic, Em.

Being friday evening, I'll just take your word for that. I am aware that chords which can be seemingly unrelated in name can share the same notes, but my brain is too fried to go through the notes, and "check it" to absorb it right now. I will though. It always amazed me how people say, "Oh well, you can just substitute a rootless A7b9 for a C#dim there, or something similar. Especially when the root is not the same. My head nearly explodes, like it is about to now!

[monk]

Is it correct that a 6/9 is 1,3,5,6,9 ?

Yes, that's correct. The major 6/9 chord is also the harmonic representation of the Major Pentatonic scale.

My head nearly explodes, like it is about to now!

Apologies for lighting your head's fuse.

Here's how that works.

1. A7b9= A C# E G Bb

2. C#dim7 = C# E G Bb

So, C#dim7 is A7b9 without a root.

Regards,
Monk

[Noodler]

Dear Monk, I trusted you when you said the notes were the same, it still bakes my Noodle though!

Nice example above with the Cmaj7 to C#dim7, Dm7 to D#dim7. Just like Aint Misbehavin, one of my favourite songs ever. The Em7 doesn't seem to fit as well, but I am probably just hearing Aint Misbehavin', or playing a bad inversion. I Normally play it as C, C#dim, Dm7, G7. So let me see:

Gdom7 = G, B, D, F

D#Dim7 = F#, C, D#, A.

Um , I wasn't expecting that! I was expecting them to share lots of notes, because either sounds really good as the fourth chord!

[monk]

Noodler,
Both of these progressions do sound good and they would both work with Ain't Misbehavin'. But in this case, we are dealing with 2 different progressions that are moving in different ways to arrive at the same spot.

The progression I gave you is being driven by the bass line, C-C#-D#-E. The one you wrote starts that way C-C#-D then moves from D to G via the Cycle of Fourths.

The D#dim7 is not substituting for G7. It is, instead, functioning as the V7 of a substitute for the I chord. That's why they don't have common notes.

In harmony, there are 3 sounds. Major, Minor & Dominant. There also 3 Functions. Tonic, Sub-Dominant & Dominant.

The progression C-C#dim7-Dm7-G7 would end on C. G7-C (V7-I) is a harmonic inevitability in tonal music.

With C-C#dim7-Dm7-D#dim7-Em7, the last chord, Em7, is functioning as a substitute for C.

CMaj7= C E G B
Emin7= E G B D
So, in this instance, Em7 functions as CMaj9.

Harmony is a big subject. Any time you spend studying it will pay off in large dividends.

Hopefully this is clear. If not, shout back with questions and I'll try to clarify.

Regards,
Monk

[Noodler]

Monk, that is awesome!

What you've posted there sounds like a summary of a very large topic I know nothing about. I know my:
Intervals, scale chords, that the V is a dominant chord, as is a dim7. I just thought tonic, sub-dominant and dominant were I,IV,V.

In other words your post has piqued my curiosity on a topic where I know just enough to know that I don't know anything much at all!

It is, instead, functioning as the V7 of a substitute for the I chord. That's why they don't have common notes.

I don't really understand this bit. I always resolve to a plain major or major 7, or Minor as the case may be.

If you want to give me some tips on where to learn more, I'd be grateful. I don't expect you to type everything you know, which would be a great deal!

[monk]

Noodler,
You are 100% correct about I, IV and V being Tonic, Sub-Dominant & Dominant. But because I, IV & V are the "main chords" in the key the terms are also used to describe the functions of all the chords in the key. Here's how it works.

Tonic=Home Base or Rest
Sub-Dominant moves away from Tonic
Dominant returns to Tonic

All of the seven diatonic chords break down into one of these three main functional categories.

The Tonic chords are I, iii and vi.
The Sub-Dominant chords are IV and ii.
The Dominant Chords are V and vii.

The reduction of seven chords into three categories is made possible by the common tones shared by the chords each category. This also makes diatonic substitution possible.

Regards,
Monk

[Noodler]

Ha, good stuff! I should be paying you, my friend.

My only query is that VIm and IV share two notes. I found that if I thought something was going to VIm and it wasn't, then it was going to IV.

I'll have to listen to "When You Were Cheating" with this new info in mind. It is a ballad with strong chord changes, so it'll give me a good feel of how the system works. It is very interesting, and thanks for sharing it.

Sub-Dominant moves away from Tonic
Dominant returns to Tonic

This is a bombshell. Bravo! Just thinking of songs. Pretty true.

You should write a book. It is awesome what you are teaching me. I've never heard this stuff so completely before, and it is all useful, I never knew how a III fitted in before, and now I do. Thankyou so much!

I'm going to print this baby off and write some progressions using it.

[monk]

Noodler,
Let's take this a step further. But first let me say you are correct that IV and vi share two notes. So do ii & V as do ii & vii. As I've said in other posts, context is everything. A three chord folk, rock or country song might not sound "right" with a bunch of complex chords and you wouldn't want to end a song in the key of C on an Am or Em even though they are considered to be Tonic.

Having said that, when we begin to discuss Jazz, Classical, "Modern Classical" (how's that for an oxymoron?) or Motion Picture Soundtrack music we wander into a landscape (soundscape?) where boundaries begin to blur. In other words, anything can become anything.

But for now, let's take a look at the Diatonic Sevenths from a slightly different angle.
As you already know, if we expand the the triads in a major scale to seventh chords we'll get:
Cmaj7 Dm7 Em7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5.

Now look at the same chords as triads over bass notes.

Em/C Fmaj/D Gmaj/E Am/F Bdim/G Cmaj/A Dm/B

So now you have more possibilities for harmony and improvisation.
Also note that Am7 is an inverted C6 and Bm7b5 is an inverted Dm6.

It's a fascinating subject.

Have fun.

Regards,
Monk

[monk]

MISTAKE ALERT!

I meant to say that iii & V share two tones.

My apologies,
Monk