[chorizo]

Just throwing this out there...

Would you say the "ultimate goal" (if such a thing exists) in improvisation would be to be able just play the notes you think of (or feel). Do you think this would be possible after enough time and practice so that you wouldn't even need to know about the underlying music, (i.e you would just hit the right notes)???

[belle111]

the ultimate goal is to play your own version in a way that would sound you.. from it one can pick up your character and what you believe in...making your own statement on how you play your music....you way ..your style ..your sound..

[st_jo]

Kirk says:

when I listen to music, part of my brain is going "I ... vi ... II7 ... I ..." etc., as the progression progresses

is this because you immediately recognize Key and adapt your numeration from there? aren't adjacent Keys relative in many respects thereby creating confusion....well, i mean, wasn't it such that way when you first began learning?

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by st_jo

Kirk says:


is this because you immediately recognize Key and adapt your numeration from there? aren't adjacent Keys relative in many respects thereby creating confusion....well, i mean, wasn't it such that way when you first began learning?

Kirk's way of thinking IS relative. If you can think in terms of "I....vi...II7.....I....etc.", that applies to any key. A "I / vi / ii7" progression in the key of C is "C / Am / Dm7". In the key of F#, it would be "F# / D#m / G#m7". I think what he's hearing and picking that allows him to adapt his numeration are the intervals.

[st_jo]

my way of thinking is so far relative that i confuse myself knowing that C is the I of C and the ii of B and the iii of A..... and so on. when i think on this too much, my hair starts to bleed.

[AX7221]

If Kirk was listening to a song that had the chords C, G, Em. If it was played one way it would be clear that the C is the I, the G is the V and the Em is the iii. But it if was played differently it would be clear that the G is the I, and the vi, and the C is the IV. On post number 37 here i put recordings in 2 different keys but the same intervals. That will illustrate something different, but in both you can hear how the C sounds like the I in the first recording but not the second. Same for the G chords.

[Stratrat]

Originally Posted by st_jo

my way of thinking is so far relative that i confuse myself knowing that C is the I of C and the ii of B and the iii of A..... and so on. when i think on this too much, my hair starts to bleed.

Ah....but if I correctly understand what Kirk's saying, he isn't just "thinking" it that way, he's "hearing" it that way. He's hearing the root, and can then perceive the intervals just by hearing them. He's not consciously thinking "Hmmm, that's C#, which is the iii of A"....he's just hearing a I....iii progression, and would hear it the same way regardless of what key it's in or what the actual notes are. The intervals between notes are the same in any given key, even though the notes themselves are not. You could sing "Happy Birthday To You" in any key and you'd use the same intervals.....someone who thinks along Kirk's lines wouldn't analyze it as "hmmm, that sounds like the key of 'C', so the notes are C, D, C, F, E, etc." - rather, they would hear a "I, ii, I, IV, iii, etc. progression", regardless of key.

[Kirk Lorange]

That's right, Stratrat. Until someone tells me the key, or I check it with a guitar, I'm just hearing numbers, not chord names. As soon as I do know the key, then I can ascribe names to the numbers.

st_jo,have a look at this lesson: The Music Building

So, what I'm saying is that I know which rooms the music is moving to and from, I don't know the floor. I can also hear any of the common deviations from the standard layout, like if one of the minor rooms has been 'majorized' or vice versa, or if a quick trip to another floor has taken place. In that case, I can hear how many floors up or down, but not the exact one. I can only know that if I know the name of the floor I start on.

Does that help you visualize what I'm talking about?

While being able to hear like this is very practical from a playing point of view, it can actually become irritating as it makes it difficult to just listen to nice music, to just let it all wash over you the way music is supposed to do.

[st_jo]

Thanks Kirk. That helps a little. I am very adept at visualizing... especially whirled peas......snort snort.
I have to wait another paycheck before I make my purchase, or win more tomorrow at the poker table.
How does a minor become majorized.... it's a single note difference, i get that -b3- but what is it you are implying.
Any thoughts on atonality and discordant guitar noise?

[Kirk Lorange]

Not really implying anything, st_jo. Composers don't need to restrict themselves to those 7 chords when writing a tune, they can use any chords they choose. A very common way of breaking away from the 7 related chords is to turn one of the minors into a major, so you still keep the root, but the flavor changes. Another common one is to go from a IV to a iv ... these are things you get to hear after a while. There is no discord or atonality involved as it really becomes a mini key change when you do that, the ear simply adapts.

Example -- play:

D > F#m > G > A ... listen to that. That's I > iii > IV > V in the key of D. Now play:

D > F# > G > A ... listen to that. That's I > III > IV > V in the key of D. You could view that F# (major) as a momentary key change, I guess, but it's still the key of D.

If you listen long and hard enough to music, you can simply hear those Roman numerals, whether they're the proper diatonic versions or the altered versions.

[st_jo]

thanks Kirk,
i see better what you mean. i suppose i had intuited that idea because i DO hear those mini changes when i listen to some music.
when i mentioned atonality and discordant sounds, i was asking you about your take on those approaches to guitar playing.

[Kirk Lorange]

Hi again, st_jo. I'm not quite sure what you mean. Can you be more specific? Using atonality and discord is no different on a guitar that any other instrument. The intervals that create these sounds are the same no matter what you're playing, and you get to know where and how to use them if you so desire.

[st_jo]

well,
i'm not suggesting atonality and discord are exclusive to guitar playing. i simply am curious about your take on these two nuances. do you use them on occasion? do you listen to folks who use them much?
ever hear Eugene Chadbourne?
thanx

[Kirk Lorange]

No, I hadn't heard of Eugene before today, I found some YouTube videos ... not really my cup of tea. If you listen to my tracks you'll hear what I'm into. Not much atonality or discord going on.

What's your take on it? Do you like Eugene's music?

[scotty_b]

Eugene is whacked.
I can handle some fairly dissonant music (ie later Miles) and even enjoy some of it.
That performance I just witnessed on Youtube is reminiscent of the great Spinal Tap comment - such a fine line between clever and stupid!